Recovering from a bounce

[LSaupe 123]

O.K.  got myself into a increasing (in amplitude) bounce last week.  Very unsettling.  Bounced three times before it settled down. Other than punch it and get out of dodge (go-around), I have been successful in the past with just leveling off a bit and letting it settle back down (sometimes adding power).  In this case she just wanted to keep the cycle going.

Any of you run across this before and have any words of wisdom?  

[TJay 1041]

bring it in at 50mph instead of 60

[1avidflyer 1983]

Often it seems you are not slow enough, and still have the tail up off the ground a bit.  When the mains hit, the tail goes down, and the added angel of attack launches you back into the air cause your not slow enough to stay on the ground.  My guess is your stick wasn't all the way back when this happened.  Hold it off till it can't fly any more.  When I get anxious to get on the ground the same thing happens to me.   Although it's not as often as it used to be... ;-)  JImChuk

[LSaupe 123]

Yep, got that stuff.  Actually more interested in what you guys do when you do encounter a bounce.

[wypaul 448]

I was taught to hold the stick to the lap and let the plane settle back on.  That works just fine until it doesn't so not wanting to get into that story, I now tend to add power and reset up the landing or go around.  I am not a CFI and can't say that this is the "right" way but that is what I am doing now.

also at 50 mph approach my MK IV is harder to land, not enough energy to stop the decent without adding more power.  For a dead stick I plan on 70mph approach.  Once again not saying this is the right way just what works for me and my plane.  I sure would like to hear what others find for approach speeds with a 650 pound plane.

[BryceKat 125]

There's 2 bounces

1. A hop-the airplane isn't flying but the earth just gave it a little nudge to remind it whose boss! Amplitudes will decrease if continue at all.

2. The Bounce-the airplane is still flying and you're along for the ride.  Bob Hoover and Chuck Yeager can deal with this, us mortals......... So, use your right hand, while maintaining directional control with your FEET and your left hand, and push the throttle all the way in, and salvage your ego and airplane. On climb out, look out both windows at your flaperons, wing tips and landing gear, and tell them how much you love and appreciate them, have a tender moment with them.  Then pat yourself on the back cause you don't have to get on here and see who has any of the aforementioned aircraft parts or even worse, you don't have TRY and make contact with the creature that's more elusive than Sasquatch or The Lochness Monster, Brett at Airdale.  Put put an extra landing in your logbook.  Now this is the really important part.  The previous was just foundational, ya gotta do it cause you'll look like an idiot kind of Bullshit. 

Airports are collecting zones for guys that like to sit around and watch their buddies do crazy crap and then give them abunch of shit for it-it's the way we bond, ya' know, just like dad did when we were kids! They saw you do what you did, they've already entered it into the airports history record, your ego is screwed.  Your going to have to listen to the Edmos, Larrys, Doug Hollys of your particular airstrip go on for months about that bounce you just did. And hear about it you will! Been there, done heard that! So your faced with 2 options at this point:

1. Take it on the ears first, then the ego-which you might as well let them kick you in the balls! This is the shit option, btw.

2. Jump out of your airplane, if you can do it while it's still rolling it will be more affective, and go into a FULL ON RAGING RANT ABOUT THOSE GODDAMNED DEER ON THE RUNWAY!  This should approximately a minute to a minute and a half, 2 minutes is toooo long. The audience will no your full of shit, your gonna have to read them to see how their buying what your trying to sell.  And sell you must! Throw your hat, swear at the diety of your choice for creating deer, take your jacket off and beat it on the ground, try and get as red in the face as possible! Look your buddies in the eyes and yell questions such as, "DID YOU SEE THAT FUCKING MOOSE RUN IN FRONT OF ME?" But don't let them answer, just go onto the next rant. To get buy in from the jury, you might need to throw something expensive, such as a pair of headsets.  The more expensive, the more convincing you are! Now start slowly cooling the show of by listing all the government wildlife agencies your going office rape next week and also get a tape measure out and start measuring the all the cabin tubing behind the seat. Do this without saying anything. When someone works up the nerve to ask what your measuring for, stop, drop the tape the measure on the floor like your answering the most simple question for the fifteenth time, look him in the eyes, and through gritted teeth say, "A GUN RACK, you dumbASS!" Don't say anything more, because at this point, in your buddies eyes, you OWN the airport and you are so cool for letting them hang out close too you

[BryceKat 125]

Option 2 is what REAL Aviators like Bob Hoover and Chuck Yeager would do!

[EDMO 1078]

I was taught to hold the stick to the lap and let the plane settle back on.  That works just fine until it doesn't so not wanting to get into that story, I now tend to add power and reset up the landing or go around.  I am not a CFI and can't say that this is the "right" way but that is what I am doing now.

also at 50 mph approach my MK IV is harder to land, not enough energy to stop the decent without adding more power.  For a dead stick I plan on 70mph approach.  Once again not saying this is the right way just what works for me and my plane.  I sure would like to hear what others find for approach speeds with a 650 pound plane.

I agree with Paul, "not enough energy to stop the decent without adding more power".   As Ed Downs states in his book, (paraphrased) "These light planes have less kinetic energy and fly more like a badminton birdie, rather than a tennis ball".  Also, the earlier, and I guess some of the later AvidFoxes suffer from not enough elevator at slow speeds, the same for my Ercoupe:   If your too-steep-descent is not checked by adding some power to flatten out the glidepath with a better flare, you are going to bounce - the safest act after a bounce is probably adding power and telling the rest of the world that you were doing a touch-and-go, and try for a better landing the next time.    EDMO

Edited 18 Sep 2016 by EDMO

[lostman 198]

As a CFI the action you described is what I refer to as a Jounce. It is exaggerated by exactly the main gear bouncing but just after they leave the ground the tailwheel smacks down. This brings the attitude back to a more normal flight condition but since you don't have enough speed to fly again it happens all over again. With a larger plane it just gets worse with each prang. The third one is what I consider the "final" one. This is usually (statistically speaking) things start to break or bend. Basically don't ever let it get to that point. 

If I or a student bounces one time hard enough that I even think it's going into the "Jounce" territory, it's time for full power and climb out. I won't let it get past the second one. Of course sometimes the second time happens before you get your speed back up but at least you're out of there before the final one happens. I've seen it, read about it and talked to many people that have had it happen. Almost everyone that it happens to admits it was about the third time that the "accident/incident" actually took place. If I'm by myself most of the time given plenty of runway, I'll power up, fly the airplane and then get in a good second landing without going around the pattern again. Short field, no question, do a go around. 

In my opinion, that usually doesn't account for much to many people, there is no room for ego when it comes to going around. Personally I think much more of a pilot for going around than trying to salvage a bad landing, that was quite often caused by a poor and unstable approach. Not saying that's always the case but it sure all trickles down. 

Besides if you go around you have plenty of time to calm down in the three minutes it takes to set up for the next landing. 

Yes, I've gone around with paying passengers (obviously not in an Avid/Kitfox), and when asked told the truth. The first landing wasn't comfortable so we did it again to be safe. I've never gotten any guff from a passenger from telling them that. 

In summary, three minutes of your life and possible a quart of fuel isn't worth scraping out an aircraft or getting hurt in the process. I always tell students if it doesn't feel right go around. I don't care if they are on final approach and still 500' above the ground. As long as there is fuel, more daylight and no approaching storms, there isn't any reason you have to land on the first approach, even then it's rare that it's cutting it that close to "make it work", so to speak.

Again, just my worthless two cents. 

[LSaupe 123]

All fabulous stuff!  Thanks for the feedback.  Every flight is a learning experience for sure!

[Bandit 286]

Use a little power thenPush the stick forward and pin it on the runway. 

[Dusty 126]

I was taught to go round if the strip is short,or if long strip, a quick stab of power as the plane starts to settle and relax back pressure on contact with the ground.This works well for me,

the slow steep approach works well but also a stab of power is sometimes needed as the elevator alone can't arrest the decent.

I fly dead stick landings a little faster and wheel on with a slight check forward on contact or sometimes light braking which also brings the tail up.

[lv2plyguitar 172]

I have always had 100% effectiveness when I just dump the flaps as soon as tires touch.  I have had a couple bouncy landings and on the second bounce dumping the flaps has always worked for me.

[marksires 484]

Just got back from the Reno Air races.  Made me feel better about my tailwheel skills.  One ground loop in the Biplane class, and the one taildragger in the sport class bounced all the way down the runway.

 

Mark

 

[akflyer 1427]

You cant just go along for the ride.  I really like Option 2  

I am normally flying into short strips so I an landing with a good pit of power and well behind the curve.  When I pull the power and plop it on there is no more flying left in the wing, just the rocks and bumps in the strip to toss me around.  If I do get a good bounce in ANY plane, it's full power and if enough runway left in front of me I will set it back down.  If no runway left it's time for a go around.  Things can go from bad to worse really fast if your just trying to nurse it with the stick and not use any power to arrest it.

I really try to stay away from big runways so a 70 mph approach then float down the runway does not work for me.  On landing elevator controls speed, power controls sink rate.  I use both judiciously.   If I loose power on short final I am probly going to test the gear strength but I can't afford to float down most of the strips I go to.  Full flaps in and at touchdown I take my hand off the throttle and dump the flaps in one motion.  No float, not much of a bounce.

 

 

[C5Engineer 1170]

I agree with Leni. A bounce is a tell tale sign of a way fast approach. These airplanes really like to fly at a high AOA on short final with a little power and a 3 point landing. If you try and fly them like a Cessna you will be 20 mph too fast on final. Go up and get comfortable flying at 45-50mph at altitude. If you do land with Flaperons dump em as soon as you touch down.

[LSaupe 123]

Hey Leni:

Great post.  I am running into a problem. On approach, even at 45 MPH, this dang bird just wont sink well (just hangs up there at barley 500 fpm).  Don't want to fly much slower, but maybe I need to. (It did much better (sink wise) before I added the lift strut fairings actually).  Often I just end up pointing the nose down a bit then it picks up speed real quick.  Flaps don't seem to help much (just a better sight picture with a lower nose), though I could probably go slower with them (just need to investigate further when I get my AOA indicator (arrives today and will install this weekend). Stall speed with just me is 30 MPH.  Need to do more full flap stall work, last I checked it was like 27 MPH, but  didn't trust the gauge too much at that speed.  Goal here is short field work over a tree line.

It will be interesting to see if there is a critical angle of attack change with flaps vs non, and in what direction.  Anyone test this yet on one of these birds?  Often the critical AOA decreases with (more conventional) flaps, but I have not found anything with the Junkers type.

[akflyer 1427]

If the goal is a short approach over the trees then I would spend a good bit of time at altitude doing slow flight, play with power and flaps and learn your machine.  On most airplanes I have flow, the ASI gets hokey in the lower speed ranges especially if your dragging it in with lots of power.  I will glance at it just for shits n grins to see what it is lying to me about, but at that point in the flight eyes are outside and its flying just by the seat of your pants.  You will feel the controls start to get sluggish, you will be dancing a lot more on the rudder and you will get a decent buffet long before a stall break.  If you need to loose altitude in a hurry learn to slip.  You can keep your IAS around 65 and peg your VSI with extreme prejudice.  I don't normally do full flaperon full slips as the roll control is diminished.  If I need to slip I will pull in about 1/2 flaperon then slip it all the way till its time to flare, kick it straight and plant it on.  The difference in stall reduction from 1/2 to full flaps is only around 1 or 2 MPH and I can soak that up with brakes a lot easier than fighting poor roll control just when I need it most!

Play with lower approach speeds at altitude.  If your stall speed is 30 solo then why are you 15 mph faster than that on short final? 

Now the big ass kicker... if your going to be playing around with really low and slow approaches over trees, if your engine quits on you then you will be eating trees, that's just how it is.  If you want to learn to approach over the trees and still get in short yet safe, I would really learn to slip the plane.  You can stay relatively high on approach then slip the hell out of it to drop it over the trees and have a much steeper glide path.  In the event of an engine out you can kick it straight, still have adequate speed and altitude to make your landing area. 

 

[LSaupe 123]

Thanks for the feedback Leni.  Yep keeping the speed up around 45, as that is about my current comfort level.  Just feels quiet odd to be any slower.  Will keep playing a bit though hopefully I can creep it down a bit.  Same with slips.  I tend to bail out a bit early to avoid the dreaded gear-off light.  We had a J-3 come in once who miss judged pulling out of the slip; and took his gear off.  Hell of a short ground roll though, but did require a crap load of power to taxi.

[Yamma-Fox 403]

...You guys saying there actually is a way to land a taildragger without bouncing??

I never even entertained that idea....

Edited 23 Sep 2016 by MN Kitfox 2