Super disappointed with AC Spruce Transaction

[ChrisBolkan 130]

I ordered two 1 foot sections of square telescoping tubing for my landing gear project on my Fat Avid. I received the tubing yesterday and both pieces were bent. About 1/8 inch over the length if I laid them on a flat surface. They certainly would not telescope when one was inserted inside the other.

So I called to explain and ask what might be going on with their quality control. The woman was very polite and said she would get a hold of the metal yard and ask. She called me back and explained that they had told her that the metal comes in 20 foot pieces and what I received was "normal". (I assume it gets bent from improper handling) I said how can that be? I asked what if I needed straight tubing? I explained that I expected more buying aircraft grade material from an aircraft specialty shop. She offered to send me new metal, but said she could not be sure it would be straight. I said all it would require is the person cutting the metal to eyeball down the lenghth to see if it was bent before cutting or sending it out.

She ended up telling me that if I wanted something in particular...like straight tubing....I should specify it in the notes section of the order. I was flabbergasted.

Anyway, I told her I did not think I needed her to send new metal and that I thought I could make it work. But I asked if they have a complaint handling system and that I wanted to lodge a formal complaint. I said that if it is required to ask for straight metal from an aircraft specialty company that they should state it clearly on their website and catalog to avoid confusion from people expecting to receive what they order without asking that it be straight.

Dumbfounded......

[saskavid 47]

I've ordered a fair bit of steel from these guys over the years never recieved any of it bent or dented.One time I needed .028 wall thickness and they sent me a piece of .035 instead . Considering at the time the .028 was almost  triple the price of the .035 they heard about it and got  the .028 to my door no charge.

[lostman 198]

Just curious but is there any way this metal could have been bent in shipping? How was it packaged? I'm not trying to defend A/C Spruce, just want to know how they actually shipped it. I've had more than my fair share of things bent, dinged, smashed and broken by OOPS (UPS), FedEx and USPS during the process. I even had an alternator come that was in pieces by the time I got it. It had huge Fragile stickers all over it and the box looked like it was run over by a semi, kicked by an elephant and then dropped from a plane onto concrete. No wonder the delivery person dropped it on the front porch and ran!

[Av8r3400 1179]

I've found that buying 4130 tubing from a local steel supplier is cheaper and is usually easier to get better quality than mail order, regardless of the source.

 

This isn't a super exotic material.

[ChrisBolkan 130]

The two one foot pieces came nicely packaged in a completely undamaged cardboard box full of peanuts. No way it was bent in shipping or the box would have been damaged. It's not the fact that I got bent metal that bothers me. It is the attitude that what I got is to be expected. I know I did not misunderstand what she was telling me they said.

it's also easy for me to see how 20 foot pieces of 1/2 and 5/8 square tubing could be bent during handling by simply letting too much hang over the edge of a table. But the poor QC and more importantly the attitude about it is what I found disturbing. I'n not normally the guy to complain about anything either.

BTW, until now, Aircraft Spruce has done very well with my orders. This is the first bad material I have received. My problem is with the interaction and response from the metal shop, and the fact that they actually said if I needed it straight I should specify that.

[akflyer 1427]

I wouldn't think that you would have to specify straight pieces when ordering for an aircraft!  I would have told the lady on the phone that I needed to talk to the highest level of supervision available cause she sure as hell don't get paid enough to hear what I am fixing to say....

 

An 1/8" in one foot is a pretty good bend.

 

Interested to hear about the gear design your working on.

 

[BryceKat 125]

One word, Wicks!

[dholly 718]

Well, IMHO, you can't shoot the (customer service rep) messenger for spewing the Co. line, but I'm not terribly surprised. I've noticed far more disclaimers than guarantees on everything from products to services and all inbetween over the past several years. The old fashioned, genuine willingness to please a customer or develop a long term relationship has been replaced with an impersonal 'take it or leave it' transactional mentality. And, more often than not, when a guaranty is offered it is either overblown or not even worth the paper it is written on. And then, there is the whole miserable US legal system... business folks with questionable ethics and crooks do what they do because they know it is cost prohibitive for most consumers to pursue a legal remedy. I just bitch-slapped some dumb little punk in court for misrepresenting his company and services and refusing to return my $. But not before being hit with a nuisance counterclaim for 4x the amount which, of course, one must either defend against or acquiesce to some negotiated settlement. Cost me a pretty penny and a very expensive lesson for him, but I abhor legal extortion and refuse to settle on matters of personal integrity. Seems society has forgotten their moral compass or is banking on the hope that others have. Sorry, too much coffee, off my soapbox now...

[Luked 71]

1/8" out of straight over 12" is pretty bad. I've bought square tubing from them, and never had anything but straight pieces. I think what I bought was 5/8" square (don't remember wall thickness), and probably 4' long.

 

I wonder if there was something lost in translation communicating with the person in the metal department through the customer service rep. If the customer service person told them someone had a piece that was 1/8" out of straight, but didn't specify that it was only over a 1 foot length, they would probably just shrug and say that's pretty normal (thinking they were talking about a longer piece).

 

The big surprise is that they didn't just take care of such a relatively inexpensive problem.

 

Luke D.

[marksires 484]

I'd call back and ask for someone higher up.  On another google group (Cozy Builders) I'm on, Jim Irwin (or someone claiming to be Jim Irwin) has stepped in and taken care of things like this.  He recognizes the have had customer service problems in the past, and some are still ongoing, but seems to be trying to get it corrected.  If it isn't him, it must be a designated person, because the member complaining always indicates the problem got fixed.

 

Mark

[lostman 198]

I completely understand being upset about that kind of bend too. I think you should either try the phone route again and maybe get a different customer service (ahem) person, or even write a nice little letter to stick in the mail to them explaining the problem. A+ is right, companies have forgotten who keeps them in business and it's all based on a transactional attitude.

[IFMT 36]

Dholly said it eloquently . Everyone is accepting to much s#@T. Make it cheaper. Regulate me to death. Give me a job and over pay me. Wait a minute! You owe me! The modern world is real weird. I do buy some limited items from spruce. Be sure you know what you are ordering. I bought some "3/8" bungee and it was not at all what I expected. Not life altering but still a waste. Old time value has been replaced with crap. B

[ChrisBolkan 130]

I did call back and talk to higher management yesterday. They had good notes and were doing something about it from the shop to their supplier. I was pleasantly surprised at how proactive they were and what they already had documented when I talked to customer service manager. Quite extensive notes already. There were some mis communications between the shop and the customer service rep I spoke with initally. The call was worth it and put my mind at ease.

Aircraft Spruce has always been so good (except for shipping costs). I think they still are.

[akflyer 1427]

Good to hear! 

 

I have fought with spruce a few times.  The first time I ordered a sheet of lexan they rolled it up and shipped it to me for around 55 bucks.  I tried to order again and they wanted 170 for shipping.  I have run the numbers on the size and its still showing around 60 bucks for USPS Priority mail, but they wont ship it for that.  I think 100 bucks handling to spend 45 seconds rolling a sheet and taping it is kinda outrageous.  Oh well, I guess that's what we get for living up here in the "sticks".

 

[1avidflyer 1983]

Hi Leni,  what thickness lexan did you need?  I have one 4x8 x.090 and one 4x8x.060 that I wont need for a while and can replace them on my next trip to Duluth, Mn.  Check shipping costs from 55719 and see what it would be.  I got the .060 for $55 and the .090 for $85.  I can make a box for nothing.  I have about 10 sheets of cardboard 4'x10'.  The lexan is about a year old, still wrapped with the protective plastic.  Jim Chuk

Edited 12 Mar 2014 by Jim Chuk

[akflyer 1427]

Thanks Jim.. We sourced the .060 in anchorage and got it up there... 180 bucks a sheet!

[lostman 198]

Jim,

 

Where did you get a sheet for that price? I'm getting ready for a new windshield in Pursang and could really use a good deal on it. I can go buy the .060 at Wicks just up the road but can't seem to find a good price on .080 or .09, which I'd much rather have than the .060 for stiffness.

[1avidflyer 1983]

The .090 came from a local commercial glass installer.  My son is a construction superintendent (copied the old man) and this guy works with him quite a bit.  I had the kid tell him to order a sheet as I'm now retired and don't have the pull with some of these guys like I used to have.  I said no rush, just include it with another order (no extra shipping cost)  Might have been cheaper because of all that.  The .060 sheet was from Seeley Plastics.  They have a branch in Duluth (75 mi away) and that was their price to me.  I picked it up at their place.  Seeley was good to work with, I bought a 4'x10'x3/16" sheet of UHMW for ski bottoms a while back and their price beat everyone else.  Jim Chuk

Edited 13 Mar 2014 by Jim Chuk

[lostman 198]

That explains the good prices! Wish I knew someone or had family in the business locally! I could buy one sheet and have four windshields worth of lexan instead of having to source it every time I need to replace it.

[1avidflyer 1983]

Look for it on line.  Polycarbonate is the material name.  Lexan is just a brand name.  I'm sure you can beat ACS's prices.  Also, check out a commercial glass installer locally.  Have them include it on their next regular shipment to avoid the freight perhaps...  Shipping is now highway robbery.  Just got 4 gallons of Poly-Spray today from Wicks (10% off in March sale) and the freight from Illinois to Mn was $32 and change.  Jim Chuk

[lostman 198]

I've done some checking locally but everywhere "local" is at least 45 minutes away and in the city. Most of them are wholesalers or producers only. I sent out a few emails to see if any of them will sell me a sheet. It will cost me almost as much is diesel for the truck to pick the stuff up that way though. I might still be better off ordering off the internet with shipping costs.

 

I understand how bad the highway robbery is with shipping now days. It's terrible. What I still can't understand is the fact that diesel is something they used to throw away as a byproduct of making gasoline, now it's almost a dollar higher per gallon! That's why I bought a diesel truck in the first place, it was quite a bit cheaper. Plus when I use it I really tow a serious load down the highway. I just don't use it enough to hardly even keep it running most of the time. And it hurts when you fill up a 30 gallon tank at over $4.00 a gallon!

[jjbaker 73]

Kenneth,

 

Great recap on the problems with Diesel engines... I usually get brandmarked a conspiracy theorist for saying that the price of Diesel being so ridiculous has no other reason than to keep the technology from evolving and properly developing in this country. There are way too many profits and kickbacks to be paid to car manufacturers who still build low torque, low power gas guzzler V8's and V10s.

 

For the longest time we lied to people about dirt particles and Diesel being worse for the environment. Then we started modifying European Diesel powered cars to have less than stellar gas mileage and finally we're arriving at Diesel selling for such high prices that the next step up is AVGAS. In Europe, Diesel is traditionally much cheaper and it comes as no surprise to see even fast and high powered luxury limousines and SUV's powered by the "stinky" stuff. Diesel catalic converters and new direct injection technology make the newest Diesel engines clean and quiet.

 

90% of Americans I have talked to about Diesel, associate the vehicles powered by those engines as "dirt machines", even though the only black and blue smoke plumes are emitted from trucks that would run on piss and frenchfries. Even the newer trucks have incredibly high heat cleaning cycles and I evacuated the truck shop I used to work at more than once for a W9 going into "selfcleaning oven mode".

 

My last BMW Diesel in Germany got me an average of 55-65MPG, asking for no service over a period of 17000 miles. Efficiency redifined for a guy who downgraded from a Super + BMW M5 with a sooped upy 500 horses and a official top speed of 192 MPH (tailwind, mirrors retracted) but I swear, it was worth it. The vehicle would easly go 140 MPH and after driving his 2013 185HP predecessor during my last visit, I could not tell I was sitting in a Diesel vehicle. Amazing torgue at incredibly low RPM and that tank needle barely moves.

 

Over here, we still teach the 3-5000 mile oil change (one of the biggest frauds in the world) and new technology is artificially kept under the carpet. Not only do we see the aftermath in less properly powered vehicles on the road, we also see the reflection of this stupid game in the prices of everything, as trucks still depend on this crap shoot game. Talk to any trucker about how they feel filling their tank for $500/ each pop, at an average 9MPG burn, depending on terrain and weight.

 

Diesel is to our automotive industry as Rotax engines are to our General Aviation pilot population.

A threeheaded monster nobody really understands.

 

Back on topic, sorry...

 

This is the first time I hear of someone having a funky experience with AC Spruce. They can certainly do better than that and I would write an email to see if the case can't be escalated and solved to your satisfaction.

Edited 14 Mar 2014 by jjbaker

[1avidflyer 1983]

Just did a google search, and see that I'm spelling The Duluth Mn. supplier's name wrong.  It's Seelye Plastics.  Don't know if they will ship out one or two sheets though.   Jim

[Trackwelder 12]

Diesel has gotten so expensive because we export it to the world market.

[1avidflyer 1983]

I think part of the increase in cost of diesel is mandated "green" additives and low sulfer restrictions.   I remember when I was in Montana in the early 70s we were getting fuel for .15 cents per gallon for the logging equiptment.  Times have changed..... Jim