AVID Fuel Tanks

[lv2plyguitar 172]

Hi,

Have any of you had issues with the fiberglass tanks deteriorating because of 87 octane in tank.  I mix my gas currently so that helps a lot but switching to a 912 and wondering if I should change gas tanks while I am at it.

Thanks

[EDMO 1078]

Hi,

Have any of you had issues with the fiberglass tanks deteriorating because of 87 octane in tank.  I mix my gas currently so that helps a lot but switching to a 912 and wondering if I should change gas tanks while I am at it.

Thanks

I think the only ones who have had problems were using gas with 10% alcohol in it - You don't have to worry about that in Alaska - plenty of non-moonshine gas up there, unless it has changed since I left there.  Will a 912 burn 87, or do you need higher octane?   EDMO

Edited 8 Sep 2016 by EDMO

[lv2plyguitar 172]

90 octane is the minimum recommended octane.  Do you think the tanks will be okay?

Thanks

[EDMO 1078]

If they don't leak now, then I don't think non-E gas will hurt them.  C5Engineer says he mixes gas but don't let the tanks set with gas in them when he is going to be gone for a while.  I wonder about adding a couple ounces of oil - would that hurt the 912?  We used to put 2 oz of Marvel Mystery Oil for each 5 gallon of gas in our tanks for the Continental engines.  Ask Leni what he thinks - Oh, he is moose hunting now.  I don't know if MMO would be good or bad for FG tanks - ours were aluminum!

  EDMO

Edited 8 Sep 2016 by EDMO

[lv2plyguitar 172]

Leni, Come back from your moose hunting trip now.  Avid's are more important.

[Av8r3400 1179]

What 912 are you running that says 90?

The UL, 80 hp engine requires 87 minimum octane.  The 100 hp engine requires 92 minimum octane due to its higher compression. 

Marvel snake oil will only carbon up the engine.  Dont waste your money.  It neither needs it or wants it.  It won't make any difference to the tanks.  

Dave Fisher in Canada and Joey, too, for that matter, have been running alcohol contaminated fuel for years with no ill effect to the tanks.

IMO, gasoline in the people republic of Amerika is a regional witches brew of ecco-nazi mandated crap.   Some of the concoctions work with fiberglass tanks, some do not. 

Edited 9 Sep 2016 by Av8r3400

[EDMO 1078]

They get Realgas in Alaska - Made in Alaska - Without southern moonshine - Stupid Feds made them put MTBE or whatever in it, and so many people got sick from it in Fairbanks one winter they took it out of the gas again.    EDMO

Edited 9 Sep 2016 by EDMO

[Bandit 286]

My tanks rotted and I never ran a once of booze gas through them.

[birddog486 21]

Wisconsin's E-free 91 octane Recreational gas only takes a few days to soften the early 90's fiberglass tanks to cause leaks and potentially creating major issues.

 

Travis 

[EDMO 1078]

My tanks rotted and I never ran a once of booze gas through them.

They suffered from frostbite and freezing!    Sorry, 

My tanks were made about 2003 by Ron's Fiberglass - He made tanks for Kitfox for a while - wonder if the resin changed from the 90's?  He told me I couldn't buy the stuff.   EDMO

Edited 9 Sep 2016 by EDMO

[dholly 718]

Holy crap. I don't know whats in WI "Recreational" gas but it looks like some serious paint stripper to me. I would be livid if an E-free did that to my plane.

[EDMO 1078]

Holy crap. I don't know whats in WI "Recreational" gas but it looks like some serious paint stripper to me. I would be livid if an E-free did that to my plane.

Doug,  The Wi-E-Free just caused the tanks to leak.  The Stewarts primer don't like Mogas inside the fabric. 

I am beginning to wonder if some of these tanks had faults or poor quality, because other tanks seem to do fine. 

EdMO

Edited 9 Sep 2016 by EDMO

[lv2plyguitar 172]

Are there plastic or aluminum tanks that replace the old fiberglass ones?  My tanks are from early 90's.  

[Av8r3400 1179]

Aluminum tanks crack due to the wing flex.  There are insertable rotomolded poly tanks (wingtanks.com), but if you are looking for new tanks, IMO, your best bet is the new style fiberglass tanks which are ethanol "resistant".

 

All I ever run is "Wisconsin's E-free 91 octane Recreational gas" and I have never had an issue.  My Ol' Yeller had the creamed tanks from the early 90's.  I watched them like a hawk and scoped them at least once a year with a fiber optic camera.  Never loosened the cream or leaked.

Some southern Wisconsin counties mandate MTBE or some other type of "oxygenate" agent added to the fuel.  This is exactly what I mean by a regional witches brew of ecco-Nazi crap...

[C5Engineer 1170]

I also have tanks from the 90s and run Cali gas. I too watch them like a hawk. Twice a year I drain them and take out the 90 degree elbow at the tank exit and insert and straight fitting and run a few gallons through the tank and into a strainer. So far I've picked up a few bits and pieces of resin here and there but nothing to be concerned with. Seems the tanks were really hit or miss. I tend to lean towards running mogas if at all possible for two reasons. Rotaxs hate 100LL and if I wanted to burn Avgas I'd make it worth my while by running an O-320 or better in a much bigger plane.

[marksires 484]

The problem with MoGas is you never know what is in it.  Even without ethanol, they can dump any other old thing they have laying around they want to get rid of in the mix as long as it meets the emission standards when they are done.  Buying at the same location isn't a guarantee either, they don't control the mixing before delivery.  It may be fine for years, and then the distributor has some Tuolene that needs to be gotten rid of - into the tank it goes.

Mark

 

[nlappos 413]

The newest fiberglas tank materials are impervious to mogas alcohol blends, wingtanks.com is an example of the new tanks. The builder of my Avid MK IV aircraft changed the wing tank over a few years back (I'd have to dig into the records to find out what tank he used), and he and I use mogas/ethanol blend with no issues for years. The freedom to spend $2.10 a gallon is a really big one!

If you find an older Avid with older tanks, plan to change them for peace of mind. The job isn't trivial, but the end result is great economic freedom.  BTW, the Rotax manual says burn high octane in the 582, I buy 91/93 Octane mogas with ethanol regularly, and only burn 100ll when I am at an airport and can't get mogas. My plugs are clean and light tan, as a result, and no lead fouling at all.

[dholly 718]

Nick - Now that Brett has taken on a new job I'm not even sure the wingtanks.com tanks are available. In any event, I would still be very careful using the terms 'impervious' or 'proof' when talking about the latest fiberglass tanks made with vinyl-ester resin. Even John McBean refuses to do so and continues to call the newest Kitfox tanks 'ethanol resistant'. Personally I think the only true E-Proof tanks are plastic, Rocky Mountain Wings also sells one with a wing profile that can be made to use in an Avid/KF wing. I know Bandit and Neloner have these in their Avids, I'm sure there are more.

Edited 9 Sep 2016 by dholly

[lv2plyguitar 172]

Brett needs to sell his Airdale business to Kitfox and let Kitfox sell both AVid and Kitfox.

[EDMO 1078]

Brett needs to sell his Airdale business to Kitfox and let Kitfox sell both AVid and Kitfox.

He would have to pay Kitfox to take it - and then it would be scrapped!   EDMO

[lv2plyguitar 172]

I actually talked with Kitfox and they would love to reverse engineer an AVID so they can start providing to us AVID owners.

[EDMO 1078]

I actually talked with Kitfox and they would love to reverse engineer an AVID so they can start providing to us AVID owners.

Maybe business is slow?  I see that 9460 from them is now $144 vs $116 from another place.   EDMO

Edited 9 Sep 2016 by EDMO

[TJay 1041]

Ah I don't believe that, with the amount of money, space, and tooling that kitfox has they would be foolish to buy another business that really isn't  there compitation, If kitfox wanted to support the older kitfoxs and avids they would have been doing it many years ago, and also if they wanted to make a copy of the airdale, I'm sure they could,

[Av8r_Sed 82]

I've been running exclusively Southern WI e-free mogas in my early 90's Kreemed Kitfox tanks with no leakage (knock on wood).  Like Larry did, I keep an eye out for any leakage or delamination of the Kreem.  I also test each batch I buy in case somebody mixed up and let some corn alky mix in.

I worked my career for a company in the refining industry and what everyone says is true.  What you get is a witches brew of blend components that just need to meet API specs.  The system works for autos and most other applications.  Keep the corn lobby and politicians out of it and things would improve.

[EDMO 1078]

From what I have read, this moonshine additive in gas is worse for the environment than just burning fossil fuel - The water, fertilizer and pesticide pollutants and fuel used to grow the corn, harvest it, transport it, and process it, and it burns twice as fast as gasoline and produces half the power of gas.  Of course you know the politicians are up to their ears and lots of $$$ involved.  There is also the shortage of livestock feed, increased prices of meat, cornmeal, hominy, etc.   EDMO

Edited 10 Sep 2016 by EDMO