Is it just me or are JUST's getting more....

[C5Engineer 1170]

Expensive! I was trolling Barnstormers today and popped into the Just page.

 

Super STOL 120K

Super STOL 125K

Highlander 80K

Basic Super STOL kit 45K

 

I mean they are cool and all but there's only so many Steve Henry's and people who can toss away 100K for a Toy. Even Steve takes his Highlander on anything cross country because the Super STOL is so slow. If you could afford to build one you still have to be willing to wreck it every time you go out if you want to come close to utilizing what it's capable of. The factory has wrecked both of theirs and Steve Henry has wrecked his as well. These things are starting to remind me of the $250K Cubs that are floating around out there. It's still a 100mph Cub and good pilot can take a stock one into places that most wouldn't/couldn't take their Carbon Cub into.

 

IF I ever find myself in a place that I can afford a $100,000 airplane it's going to have to satisfy a whole lot more of a mission statement than landing in places where most of the time I would land my 15K Avid at. My dream is to do what Larry is doing and cobble together all my stuff into a 912 powered super Avid but at this point even that is financially way down the road.

 

Okay I'm done...back to your regularly scheduled program...

 

Here's a video that friend Emmet did after Greg Swingle of Ohio Bushplanes came out to visit us. I seriously don't think I would be able to go out and have this kind of fun with 120K of plane under my ass.

 

[cliff 45]

I have the parts to cobble together a Mk 4. I was planning on doing just what you said. I don't have the time to finish it. It is for sale cheap.

[C5Engineer 1170]

Saw your ad. I do too and am in the same boat. No time. Hell half my cowling is cardboard right now just so I can fly...

[EDMO 1078]

I was just reading in my new Kitplanes mag about a guy who has spent years trying to build a replica of the Spirit of St.Louis, and all the money he has spent so far, like $35,000 for an incomplete engine, $8000 for this and that - My wife would divorce me if I told her I would need another $3500 to finish my Foxy! (I'm not telling her!)

I bet that his plane will never go into the bush - If it ever leaves the airport traffic!

EdMO

Edited 23 Sep 2015 by Ed In Missouri

[C5Engineer 1170]

I hear that Ed! My wife has always been supportive of my addiction but I I think I do pretty good at keeping myself in check. Airplanes are expensive but with the decline in General Avaition and the increase in Sport Pilots I am surprised that there are not more companies like BeLite popping up that support affordable flying for the common person. Instead the Icon is on the cover of every mag right now with its $200k price tag for a 100mph LSA.

[Av8r3400 1179]

LSA sure has been lost in the cost, that's for sure.

From the onset I've tried to hold to a $45k budget on the Mangy, the cost of a new pickup. While too much for some, this was my justification. Barring any catastrophes I should make it.

IMO, true part 103 flying really doesn't appeal to many people. It's just too limited. A 30 mile circle at maybe 50 mph reruns out of fun, real quick.

LSA had (and maybe still has) the appeal of flying real airplanes with enough range and capability to enjoy. Maybe one day soon this will be rediscovered. Maybe when the class III medical reform happens and everyone moves up to bigger planes the LSAs will hit the market with a more reasonable cost curve.

[Av8r_Sed 82]

If you want a laugh, check out the marketing video Icon did with Bloomberg: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-17/the-icon-a5-is-the-closest-thing-to-a-flying-car-you-can-buy-today

 

They're unapologetically quoting $250K fully loaded.  I really wonder who we're going to be sharing airspace with if they're successful.

[EDMO 1078]

Personally, If I was a young man, I would be either buying a used Kitplane, or building one, or an older Piper or Cessna or something with a very low price to get the experience of flying, and investing my other money into an education and getting a private pilot license. I think if they stop the medicals, those factory planes will go up in price.

When you get older, or afraid of failing a medical, that is the time to give up your night flights to go get a hamburger 100 miles away, or to be at a fishing hole by daylight on Saturday morning, and again fly a cheap airplane in the daytime as a Sport Pilot.

EdMO

Edited 23 Sep 2015 by Ed In Missouri

[Av8r_Sed 82]

From the onset I've tried to hold to a $45k budget on the Mangy, 

 

Larry,

When you're done, it would be great if you could do a cost breakdown of your project (unless it would scare you to actually put it in writing).

[C5Engineer 1170]

It's almost like LSAs have gotten like RC models in a sense. 15 years ago EVERYONE built them from a box a sticks. Now 80% or better come almost ready to fly. Only a select few who have time and patience build them anymore.

Right now alone on barnstormers and even here are deals that someone could snatch up and be flying a nice LSA for under $30K. Like Larry I think under $50k is fairly reasonable to most of us here but North of 100k weeds out the vast majority of people looking to just go out and have fun.

[EDMO 1078]

I guess I have had the best of both cheap flying and the enjoyment of building and designing, including stick models.

From the cost aspect, my private license cost me $400, a new Chevy convertible was under $3000, a new Cessna 150 used to cost $8000 at the time I bought my first house for $11.000, and the government paid for over $5000 in flying time after paying me 11 cents an hour to start with in the Army.

My latest house is a $222,000 investment, (guessing that would be $1million in California?), and the retirement income is so low that even a $50,000 LSA is out of budget.

The standard answer is, "Everything is relevant". Your income determines your outflow, but not your enjoyment.

EdMO

Edited 23 Sep 2015 by Ed In Missouri

[KFfan 151]

Its been said "The difference between men and boys is the cost of their toys"...

[Bandit 286]

I think the Avid, SkyRaider, Ridgerunner ect type airplanes would sell like crazy if the owners of those companies new anything about running a business. Those guys themselves killed the light plane market for people that wanted to get into our type airplanes.

[C5Engineer 1170]

I agree. After having found a lot of the original literature, newsletters, and brochures from when Avid was in it's prime with my barnfind it's really sad to see where it's at now. Even Kitfox has gone to the darkside. I called once and one time only looking for a part for an early model that would of worked on my Avid and Debra's response was "We don't deal with the older models much anymore". I'd like to see numbers wise how many flying 1-4's there are compared to Super 7's. Glad they are doing well but WAY outta my league. I still don't understand Brent's position. I've met him in person at Osh. He's a true enthusiast but I can't figure out his business strategy. Makes me want to gather up every part I can get ahold of before they are gone forever. Having had the distinct pleasure to sit down over coffee and hear from Dean Wilson first hand what his vision was when he designed the Avid Flyer it sadens me every time I see a Kitfox with wheel pants and a $10,000 glass panel. Maybe I am just narrow minded but it just seems there are so many better suited platforms to do that type of flying with.

 

The videos on Youtube of the Europeans pulling one out of a single car garage and towing it down to the local soccer field and going flying always make me grin.

[akflyer 1427]

It seems as if the rebirth of the guys flying now have some sort of killer job and they dream only of competing at "valdez" or some sort of local STOL competition.  The I would take a 912 powered S7 over the Just any day.  I don't have to make videos and post them all over the web to make myself feel cool.  There are some things I like to share, but I don't go looking for an ego boost and cyber high fives every day.   I can get my Avid into the places I like to and need to get into.  The chop and drop highlander seems like its cool to wow the crowds at airshows, but it is not very real world practical.  When the sport plane mags started turning into glass cockpit mags I got turned off to even reading them.  I have a stack of them at home in the corner with the wrappers still on, I have not even cracked one open in the last year or so.

 

The Highlanders "amazing" gear (hmmm.. revolutionary huh.. seems the Storch was sporting this gear in 1936!!!) has become a rage.  Breedens put it on Glacier cub (that has been wrecked several times and the tail has been broke off a few times) but its just not worth it as the rest of the plane cant take the chop and drop like the gear can soak up, so it just turns out to be a who has a bigger pecker kinda thing.  You don't see guy that work the planes for a living wanting anything other than a stock straight wing cub

 

[TJay 1041]

Funny this comes up, Last month reading the new kit planes Magazine I was thinking the same thing when the carbon cub was trying to explain why there plane has an estimated cost of $145500, The Ran's s7s has a cost of $80000 along with the Highlander at $80000 The kitfox is at $89000 Then you have a list of all the composite aircraft's all in the $100000 dollar mark and above. That is Horrible I blame it on Rotax myself when they can charge close to $30000 for a damn 4 cylinder, then I guess everyone else can also gouge the customer. Years ago I bought some old Popular Mechanics magazine to read for fun. Right on the front cover In the year of 1969 It says Build a brand new BD-4 for $3500 List of materials Brand new Continental A-65 $1000 Boy have times changed huh

[marksires 484]

Funny this comes up, Last month reading the new kit planes Magazine I was thinking the same thing when the carbon cub was trying to explain why there plane has an estimated cost of $145500, The Ran's s7s has a cost of $80000 along with the Highlander at $80000 The kitfox is at $89000 Then you have a list of all the composite aircraft's all in the $100000 dollar mark and above. That is Horrible I blame it on Rotax myself when they can charge close to $30000 for a damn 4 cylinder, then I guess everyone else can also gouge the customer. Years ago I bought some old Popular Mechanics magazine to read for fun. Right on the front cover In the year of 1969 It says Build a brand new BD-4 for $3500 List of materials Brand new Continental A-65 $1000 Boy have times changed huh

Yep, times change.  I remember my parents bought a brand new molotov Pinto in 1972.  Total price, brand new out the door was under $3000.  No power windows, no power locks, AM radio, no A/C.  Anemic 4 cylinder engine, but it was a car, brand new, ordered from the factory (remember those days - get what you want, not what they had???).

Mark

[EDMO 1078]

Yep, times change.  I remember my parents bought a brand new molotov Pinto in 1972.  Total price, brand new out the door was under $3000.  No power windows, no power locks, AM radio, no A/C.  Anemic 4 cylinder engine, but it was a car, brand new, ordered from the factory (remember those days - get what you want, not what they had???).

Mark

Sorry to say this, but if your parents gave that much for a 72 Pinto, they got ripped off!

That was about a $2000 or under car.

I had two buddies who drove them - One put a buick V6 in his and it really ran. My daughter had one for her first car.

We were selling the late 60's - early 70's Roadrunners and Chargers for under $3000, when I worked for Chrysler.

If I remember right, you could get a 426 Hemi engine in one for about $800 extra.

I bought a 1973 Grand Fury Plymouth 2-door hardtop with EVERYTHING on it for $3300, and we didn't get a discount back then.

A guy I worked with bought 1 of 19 new HemiCuda Convertibles made, and parked it in his garage for a "Someday Car" -

I think I just read that one was selling for about $1million now!

EdMO

Edited 24 Sep 2015 by Ed In Missouri

[Av8r3400 1179]

Whoever is paying $30k for Rotax deserves what they get.  $17k is more like it for a brand new 100 hp 912 ULS.  You can barely buy a goddam 150 hp outboard for that!

 

If you think that is bad, go price a new Contisaurus or Lycodrip 100 hp motor and see what you have to pay for 1930's technology.

 

These are airplanes we are talking about here for craps sake. 

[EDMO 1078]

I agree Larry,

We should get back to bitching about the $8,995 Avid or Kitfox that now sells for $89,000 with the 912, or an expensive Radial engine, and the $8000 Cessna that sells now for over $100,000, and the "Kits" with "Fast-Build" that cost so much $$$$$$, you don't want to get them muddy!

I agree with Leni - STOL is for show, not my kind of flying!

I was probably about 12 when I bitched about the 35 cents an HOUR pay and my Mother told me that she did the same job when she was my age for 35 cents A DAY for a 10-hour-day during the depression years!

Guess its all "Relevant"...I'm done...Lets talk about OUR planes.

BTW, I haven't seen anyone rushing to get the real bargain on the Avid IV plus Kitfox 1, and engines and parts, that are now being offered on here for only $7500, obo.

EdMO

Edited 24 Sep 2015 by Ed In Missouri

[C5Engineer 1170]

I am by no means trying to be cheap about Aviation we all know what we are getting into. The point I was after was that the Just basically evolved from the Avid/Kitfox, does mostly the same mission yet costs an astronomical amount more money. A Kitfox Super 7 kit costs less than half of a highlander. Side by side bare bones they look awfully similar.

[TJay 1041]

Sorry I have been mistaken I guess they are only charging $28250 for a 4 banger. All I was saying is that I can buy a brand new 8 cylinder engine for my Fricken Duramax for $4000 and that is 100 times the engine, These company's need more competition that would Help regulate the prices and keep people some what honest. http://www.lockwood.aero/p-3778-rotax-115-hp-turbo-charged-aircraft-engine.aspx

[Av8r3400 1179]

Well I guess that's an appropriate comparison. A mass produced auto engine that is made in multiple 100,000s per year volume versus an Austrian made boutique, turbocharged aircraft engine that is made in multiple 10s per year.

I do agree competition would be good. I would bet that it wouldn't effect pricing hardly at all. Again parts are regulated by liability costs. Liability insurance in the aviation world is beyond astronomical.

UL Power is the only other engine comparable on the horizon, and their pricing is very similar to Rotax. Sure, you can buy a junkyard Suzuki engine from a known criminal for half the price and take your chances. Luckily, that whole enterprise is disappearing. There's also the very pretty and unreliable radials out of Australia. Even more money and far less support than Rotax. Or you can build your own Subaru setup with obsolete parts from some conversion company that may or may not still exist.

To Joeys original posting, Just is only the flavor of fashion right now. They are cashing in as best they can. I don't blame them. It will be over soon enough.

[marksires 484]

Sorry to say this, but if your parents gave that much for a 72 Pinto, they got ripped off!

That was about a $2000 or under car.

I had two buddies who drove them - One put a buick V6 in his and it really ran. My daughter had one for her first car.

We were selling the late 60's - early 70's Roadrunners and Chargers for under $3000, when I worked for Chrysler.

If I remember right, you could get a 426 Hemi engine in one for about $800 extra.

I bought a 1973 Grand Fury Plymouth 2-door hardtop with EVERYTHING on it for $3300, and we didn't get a discount back then.

A guy I worked with bought 1 of 19 new HemiCuda Convertibles made, and parked it in his garage for a "Someday Car" -

I think I just read that one was selling for about $1million now!

EdMO

Yea, I think the price was under $2000, but couldn't remember exactly so I shot a little high.  For some reason $1,900 sticks in my head (After taxes, title, delivery charges), but these days random things get stuck in my head for no good reason.

That 1972 molotov Pinto became mine when I got to driving age a few years later.  I was the one that took it back to the dealer for the exploding gas tank 'fix'.  I felt SO much safer after watching them stick a piece of 1/4" plastic in between the rear housing and the gas tank......

Mark

[Luked 71]

Well I guess that's an appropriate comparison. A mass produced auto engine that is made in multiple 100,000s per year volume versus an Austrian made boutique, turbocharged aircraft engine that is made in multiple 10s per year.

I do agree competition would be good. I would bet that it wouldn't effect pricing hardly at all. Again parts are regulated by liability costs. Liability insurance in the aviation world is beyond astronomical.

UL Power is the only other engine comparable on the horizon, and their pricing is very similar to Rotax. Sure, you can buy a junkyard Suzuki engine from a known criminal for half the price and take your chances. Luckily, that whole enterprise is disappearing. There's also the very pretty and unreliable radials out of Australia. Even more money and far less support than Rotax. Or you can build your own Subaru setup with obsolete parts from some conversion company that may or may not still exist.

To Joeys original posting, Just is only the flavor of fashion right now. They are cashing in as best they can. I don't blame them. It will be over soon enough.

 

I tend to agree with Larry here. It does seem like the Rotax is overpriced at first glance, but when you consider what it takes to produce an engine with their reliability and support, it actually makes sense. I think this video has been posted here before, but it's a good one on the subject:

 

Edited 24 Sep 2015 by Luked