A project with limited time - setting realistic expectations?

[luca1s 1]

Hello everyone!

I've just discovered that there is a small chance that I receive some (but still limited) funding from my school next year towards a Kitfox/Avid project, which would then likely be presented at the state science fair. It's very far from a guarantee, but if there's any chance of that happening, I'd definitely like to have an idea of what I could accomplish in a very limited timeframe and whether it's even worth exploring. 

Realistically, I'd have until April 2024 (might be able to stretch it to late May) to finish the project, which is not much time at all. I'm also a completely new builder, with no experience with experimental airplanes whatsoever. I do have experience with power tools of course, and some basic welding knowledge, but aside from that, very little! I have friends at the airport who do build/rebuild airplanes, but none have worked with a Kitfox or Avid before. This is all to say, I'll need to learn a lot and that doing anything will probably take longer than usual!

With all that in mind though, how much do you guys think I could realistically accomplish in the time that I have (September -> April)? My initial thought would be to start with a flying airplane (maybe a Model 1 or older Avid to keep costs down) and upgrade the engine/panel, but even that might be too much. Essentially, the main question is whether such a project is even worth trying considering with the constraints I have?

[109jb 181]

Do you already have the kit?  If not and you are thinking about ordering a new kit, you won't even get it before next April.  Unless you already have a line on an available kit you would also be hard pressed to find an uncompleted project even.

 

[luca1s 1]

Do you already have the kit?  If not and you are thinking about ordering a new kit, you won't even get it before next April.  Unless you already have a line on an available kit you would also be hard pressed to find an uncompleted project even.

I don't have a kit yet, which definitely makes this feel like a pipe dream already. I'd be looking for an older, uncompleted project or an older flying or stored aircraft (say a Model 1/2 with a 532/503) which is a tough find regardless. My main question is whether it's even worth trying to find one, even if I miraculously found an airplane, how much could I really do in the time that I have. 

Edited 18 Jun 2023 by luca1s

[Avidventurous 22]

https://www.barnstormers.com/cat_search.php?headline=&body=&part_num=&mfg=&model=&user__profile__company=&user__last_name=&user__first_name=&user__profile__country=&specialcase__state=&user__profile__city=&user__profile__uzip=&specialcase__phone=&user__email=&my_cats__name=&price__gte=&price__lte=&keyword=avid+flyer&search_type=keyword

[luca1s 1]

I saw that, seems interesting! I don't know much/anything about the kit though, I'd assume it'd be harder to build than a standard Avid or Kitfox though right? 

By the way, does anyone know of anyone in Maine (or New England in general) who owns an Avid or older Kitfox? I figure it'd be worth flying one (or at least looking at one in person) before starting anything!

[luca1s 1]

Small update, I’ve found an interesting airplane (a seemingly easy project)! It’s a currently flying Kitfox 1 with M2 wings and a 582 (still trying to confirm grey or blue head) with 100 hours on it. 

The price is quite good, but I’m trying to decide whether it’s a good platform to invest in. The fabric is original from 1991, which worries me a bit. It has been hangared since new and passes the punch test, but I’m not sure if that matters a whole lot at this age. I realistically won’t have time to do a whole recover (or even to learn the skills) for at least the next 5-6 years, so I do need to be a bit careful with what I commit to.

The other question is the 582, I’ve never flown behind a two stroke. Even while strictly following maintenance procedures and the many helpful guides on here and elsewhere, can a 582 truly be trusted (especially since I would need to ferry the airplane from FL to ME)?

Aside from that it needs a radio (just a handheld + intercom works if necessary) and a transponder (I live within a Class C), as well as probably some new rudder pedals since the current ones look quite rusted. I’d also want a gear upgrade, perhaps looking towards the Hatz-style gear and big tires. From a project perspective I’m assuming something relatively small like that is a good way to start?

With all that in mind, does this airplane (or similar two-stroke equipped KF’s/Avid’s) seem like a decent way to enter into the Fox/Avid world? 

[Willja67 145]

Make sure you educate yourself regarding rotax 2 strokes. The seals are only good for a certain number of years or hours, and like any engine if its been sitting for awhile could have some problems. If you have any questions about it better to have someone go through it who know what they're doing. 

There are plenty of folks on this site who like 582's and plenty who don't. You have to educate yourself and decide for yourself. Like anything aviation related there are ways that they can bite you hard if you don't know what you're doing. 

[luca1s 1]

Make sure you educate yourself regarding rotax 2 strokes. The seals are only good for a certain number of years or hours, and like any engine if its been sitting for awhile could have some problems. If you have any questions about it better to have someone go through it who know what they're doing. 

Yeah this is what I’ve been looking into for a few days! I’d definitely consult someone who knows what they’re doing regardless. If I did ever want to upgrade the engine though, is there really a common 4-stroke option in the Model 1 (as in there’s a reasonably available engine mount)?

The fabric has been my bigger concern lately though, is it really plausible for 31 year old fabric, even if it passes a punch test and looks clean, to comfortably last another 5+ years?

Thank you all for the amazing wealth of knowledge on this site, this forum has already taught me so much!

Edited 1 Jul 2023 by luca1s

[Willja67 145]

About the only 4 stroke option i know of (needs lots of fabrication skills) is the Yamaha phazer.

[luca1s 1]

Yeah I saw the Phazer, seems like probably too much for a first project! 

How is the Jabiru on the stock M1 (is the mount the same as M2/3)? I’m assuming it would need some ballast, but on the later 950 lbs MGW Model 1’s could that be okay? Luckily I only weight 135 lbs and mostly plan on flying alone, so gross weight isn’t a huge concern regardless.

I saw a few running the HKS 700E as well, but I worry about the performance, seems like it matches closer to the 503, not the 582.

[1avidflyer 2006]

I had a Kitfox 1 with a 582 in it.  Climbed like a homesick angel.  Was a fun airplane, but while it's possible, not the best candidate for long cross countries.  I've put about 600 hrs on a Jabiru in my Avid MK IV, and I like the engine.  It's weight is very close to the full installed weight of the 582.  I never put in tail ballast when I converted my Avid from a 582.  The Kitfox 1 is narrow, 36" compared to the Kitfox 2, 3 and 4, which are 39 1/2" wide.  If the plane has been stored in a hangar, I wouldn't worry about the fabric.  Polyfiber system is supposed to last 30 yrs in the open.  Bigger worry may be the tubing under the fabric.  But if stored in a dry climate, probably not a huge worry there either.  Other tubing should show rust if that is a concern.  JImChuk

PS  same motor mount for the 1-4, but not sure where you would find one. Jabiru 

Edited 1 Jul 2023 by 1avidflyer

[luca1s 1]

Thank you so much, that helps a lot! I definitely don’t plan on flying long cross countries frequently, it would just be the initial ferry flight. Still something I need to consider though, definitely don’t want to take undo risk with a new-to-me airplane and engine.

I just heard back from the seller about the 582, it’s a grey head installed as an upgrade from the 532 originally on the airplane. No logs though (for the engine, the airframe logs are available), so that has me quite worried. I could definitely get the engine overhauled or replaced if the airplane’s at home, but not sure about the cross country ferry flight!

I did just find another M1 (950 lb gross) right by me for the same price, but it’s not currently airworthy. Last engine and airframe inspection in 2011. I bet that would be a sizeable project right? The engine probably isn’t in great shape after 12 years of no use!

Do you think Kitfox would still manufacture a M1-4 mount for the Jabiru? Could be very expensive though, seems like they’re really focused on the M7.

[Avidventurous 22]

Lucas if that model 1 has a 582, Rotax Rick will overhaul it for less than 3K$. comes back "better than new". Justathought.

https://rotaxrick.wordpress.com/pricing/

[luca1s 1]

Yeah that’s certainly what I was planning on doing no matter what 582 I end up with. 

I’ve actually had a slightly interesting development with the airplane too. Nothing’s changed with the airplane in Florida, still seems like a fun airplane, just very far!

https://www.barnstormers.com/classified-1836538-Kitfox-1,-floats,wheels,trai.html

I did see this listed though, just 2 hours drive away from me. Neither the owner or seller know much about the airplane, seems it was purchased to help the previous owner, but in theory it looks decent. Gross weight is confusing though, it’s listed as having strengthened spars, the data plate lists 1050 lbs but the listing 950 lbs. Not sure if I can trust either? Engine would need an overhaul after sitting for 12 years, but according to the seller it has been hangared so maybe the rest is fine? I’m curious about the cost though, how much is a project Model 1 like this usually worth - does $15K seem like too much?

 

UPDATE: Seems like it’s already basically sold, but I’ll keep it in mind alongside the currently flying Model 1 in Florida. 

Edited 2 Jul 2023 by luca1s

[1avidflyer 2006]

It could be quite an adventure to fly halfway across the country in an airplane that you are not familiar with.  Lots of variables for sure.  My opinion is trailer the plane, and get used to it at your home field..... YMMV.  JImChuk

[luca1s 1]

Yeah that’s definitely what I’d prefer too! The only issue is that I don’t have a car (flying doesn’t pay for itself haha), and that the rest of my family probably wouldn’t be able to be without one for such a long time.

Do you think flying it home can be done safely at all? I do have family along the way in PA, NY and MA to stop for more extended time periods, but nothing from FL to PA. Considering that situation, if this airplane does seem right, is it worth renting a U-haul or something like that (definitely would be pricy)? Definitely no reason to take any undo risk!

[1avidflyer 2006]

I see that you have your PPL, but what kind of experience do you have getting it?  Do you have a tailwheel endorsement?   Even if you have time in a Champ or Cub, the Kitfox 1 will be more of a handful on the ground that either of the ones I mentioned.  Especially on pavement.  Pretty easy to ball it up if you aren't used to it.  Actually lot of experienced pilots have balled up Kitfoxes because they handle different from what they are used to.  I wouldn't say they are hard to fly, but if all you've flown is a Cessna, you may have a bit of a challenge at first.  Maybe someone has a trailer in your area you can borrow/rent.  JImChuk

[luca1s 1]

I do have a tail wheel endorsement, all of my time so far is in a Citabria (~75 hours) + 10 hours in gliders.

That does make sense though, I can definitely look around for a trailer! I definitely don’t want to wreck a new-to-me airplane during it’s first flight haha. If I can’t find a trailer though, do you think flying down to Florida with my CFI and getting some hours there after completing the purchase would be an option? How much of a transition is the Kitfox 1 from a Citabria/Champ/similar - is it a relatively simple transition that could be done in a day or two of flying, or is it more like going from nosewheel to a taildragger?

That does remind me though, are the stock Model 1 rudder pedals also prone to failure like the Model 4 ones I’ve heard so much about?

Thank you so much for all the information so far!

Edited 4 Jul 2023 by luca1s

[1avidflyer 2006]

The tailwheel time you have should be a big help, but I think the Kitfox 1 is a little more of a handful than the Champ.   First flights would be best on grass till you are more used to the plane.  The shape of the cowl and the way it angles in going forward on the Kitfox can make one fly crossed up on landing.  That of course sets you up for a ground loop.  And being used to flying a tandem plane where the prop is straight in front of you can do the same thing.   You are now sitting off to the side, but you are used to seeing the prop straight ahead.  The tendency can be to add some rudder to get back to the sight picture you are used to seeing.  So that is something to watch out for on your first landings.   Some have put a small piece of tape on the windshield as an aiming point till they are used to the plane.  The rudder pedals should be reinforced on the Kitfox 1.  If your CFI has experience in a Kitfox, that would be a help.  JImChuk

[luca1s 1]

Thank you so much, that is really really helpful! The airplane does seem to be based at a grass strip too which should help a lot for the first flights!

My CFI doesn’t have Kitfox experience, but she does have experience in a lot of taildraggers, including some with side-by-side seating I believe. Should still help a little I think?

If I can’t find a trailer, what do you think about doing the cross country all on grass strips? Would that make it significantly more doable?

[1avidflyer 2006]

I would find a trailer somehow myself.  Of course I have several trailers so it's not a question for me.  Another issue that comes up is what will your insurance company demand of you or your CFI before they will cover you.  Have you looked into that?

[luca1s 1]

Not yet, I’m currently on vacation in Europe so I’ve only been able to do research on the airplane in the theoretical sense. I’ll be back home in 3 days though, so I’ll look into the insurance then (as well as looking at a few factors that might make the project/purchase impossible for now).

Do you have any recommendations for providers for an airplane like this? This would be my first airplane purchase so I don’t have an existing provider at all!

[1avidflyer 2006]

I've gotten the best deal from Avemco on my Kitfox and Avid.  

[luca1s 1]

Unfortunate update, seems that the financial solution from the school that I have will probably only cover the cost of the project itself, not the initial airplane purchase or follow-up ownership costs. Sadly I don't have the resources to fund the rest myself, so I'll have to put this project aside for now. I'm sure it'll happen in a few years though, definitely not going to lose sight of the Kitfox and Avid!

In the meantime though, I'll try to see if I can fly in one, that way I'll have experience by the time I'm ready for a purchase!