Completed the 16 hr Repairmans Course

[C5Engineer 1170]

This past Friday/Saturday I attended Brian and Carol Carpenter of Rainbow Aviation 16 hr LSA repairmans course up in Corning, CA. The course cost me $400 and the seat is non refundable. I attended because the Powered Parachute I recently bought is registered E-LSA. They were heavily involved in the making of Sport Pilot and both of them have pretty impressive resumes. Some information on the course...

http://rainbowaviation.com/16_hr__course.htm

 

Before I go into the course specifics let me hit on what this certificate allows you to do real quick. First off Experimental is a very generic term. Without making this a boring post the two main types are Experimental Amatuer Built (E-AB) and Experimental Light Sport Aircraft (E-LSA). With an E-AB which is what most of our planes are, any person can do maintenance however only the original builder who holds the Repairman cert or an A&P can sign off the Annual Conditional Inspection. With an E-LSA if you complete this course you can sign off the annual inspection ONLY on the machine that is registered to you and the N number must be on your Maintenance certificate. It does NOT allow you to sign off anyone else's machine nor make money by working on E-LSA's. That is reserved for the 15 day 120hr course.

If you are curious as two how your plane is registered the easiest way to tell is to look in Box B of your PINK Airworthiness certificate. It will either say Amateur Built or Light Sport there.

Believe it or not there was 3 different guys who paid the $400 for the course, paid for a hotel plus travel expenses and then found out that they had an E-AB and the 16 hr course was worthless to them as far as paperwork goes. One poor fellow even found out that his airplane didn't have an AW cert and he couldn't get one because it was a Fat Ultralight that missed the deadline to be converted to E-LSA.

Now onto the course. Description from their website.... This course is designed to prepare the student to perform an annual condition inspection on ELSA.  

While the course contained some valuable information and I took a ton of notes, I do not feel any more competent leaving there to Annual an airplane than I did when I showed up. The following is from another student and pretty much sums up the way I felt as well.

 

Your website says, “The course is designed to prepare the student to perform an annual condition inspection on an ELSA.”  It adds, “Annual Your Own Aircraft.”   Based upon what I experienced, it should have said, “Detailed two and four stroke theory and practice, with additional emphasis on advanced aerodynamic design and amusing stories, where our brilliant hero solves all challenging technical problems for clueless owners.” 

 

I won't go into too many more details because obviously we all went in there with different expectations. Let's just say I'm happy that I only drove 2 hrs and paid $54 for a dingy hotel because I was pretty disappointed with the content of the course. There were guys as far away as Pennsylvania  there who spent a substantial amount of money to attend. Had I not been a two stroke guy who understands them pretty well I would have been really pissed as he spent hrs talking about 2 stoke theory and how they run. Nothing was discussed on what to actually check during an inspection. I can tell you though the mathematical formula for lift, all about Abbots Firestone Ratio, and how balanced flight control works. 

Basically I walked away with another piece of paper that FAA says I have to have. I paid my money for it and can now sign off my own logbooks. That was the goal but for some of the guys in there who were student Powered Parachute pilots and have done virtually no maintenance on aircraft it's pretty damn scary that they are signing off an airplane capable of carrying a passenger after that course.

I will say that they provided a lot of online resources for various homebuilder things. I am  now super smart on everything Experimental. I know how to make proper log book entries. And I got to ace the 50 question test in 7 minutes flat haha. Please feel free to ask if you have any questions.

After my visit to the Sacramento FSDO I will officially be a Light Sport Repairman - Inspector Powered Parachute LSRIPP. We were mixed in with airplane guys but if I ever buy an E-LSA airplane I will have to spend another $400 and go again to add it on...makes no sense.

Edited 9 Dec 2015 by C5Engineer

[Emory Bored 61]

I took the 120 hour course from them in 2013.  We performed weight and balance and carb sync on a really nice 1050 KF 4.  I agree that they are both pretty talented both in what they know but also in their skills as teachers.  When I went through I added on Powered Parachute and Trikes.  So I only lack the glider module.  I've missed adding it on two times because of scheduling conflicts but will eventually get that cert too.  

As you said, I can work on anybodies S-LSA or E-LSA for fun or profit. 

[Av8r_Sed 82]

I've always appreciated the EAA Hints for Homebuilders videos that Brian Carpenter has done.  He's had plenty of them: http://www.eaavideo.org/search.aspx?t=carpenter

[marksires 484]

I took the 120 hour course from them in 2013.  We performed weight and balance and carb sync on a really nice 1050 KF 4.  I agree that they are both pretty talented both in what they know but also in their skills as teachers.  When I went through I added on Powered Parachute and Trikes.  So I only lack the glider module.  I've missed adding it on two times because of scheduling conflicts but will eventually get that cert too.  

As you said, I can work on anybodies S-LSA or E-LSA for fun or profit. 

Maybe I read it wrong, but I didn't think Joey was being very complimentary of their teaching skills, or at least teaching the subject advertised....

Mark

[Knuckledragger 135]

Thanks for the detailed and candid write up Joey!  I would imagine anyone who already has comfort turning wrenches would not get much technically out of a class like that.  So the value seems to be in clarification of the laws and requirements and conveying wisdom through "stories" and passing along resources available online.  Sitting through a 2 & 4 stroke theory of operation lecture would drive me bananas.  Back when I was in junior high, one of the shop classes that was required had 2 & 4 stroke theory and disassembly/assembly as part of the syllabus.  funny how public school was a resource to us for hopping up chainsaw and mower engines.

The class seems more or less like a punch ticket item that the FAA created to help maintain revenue streams for some of the repair depots.

Edited 9 Dec 2015 by Knuckledragger

[ChrisBolkan 130]

I took the same course for my Fat Avid a couple years ago. Drove down from Washington and spent a couple nights there. I found it interesting and not an entire waste of time but I am already mechanically inclined. I picked up some nice tips on 912 maintenance. I am more of a two stroke and Lycoming guy, so I found the 912 stuff helpful as it is a little different animal. I agree that if someone were not already mechanically inclined, a thinker and a tinkerer, the course would be of no practical value and it is a scary proposition that someone could take that course alone and be qualified as a "repairman".

I did however get the cert and a trip to the local FSDO will make me the legal repairman for my ELSA Fat Avid when I get it finished. And THAT will be really cool!

The relatively large group that was my "class" must have been more knowledgeable and knew what kind of planes they had because I do not recall anyone being there and discovering they had an EAB plane.

[C5Engineer 1170]

I was in no way bashing Rainbow or the Carpenters. They are some of the most knowledgeable folks out there. I would not hesitate to take my plane there. The info presented was interesting but in now way prepared us to do an annual. 

[Emory Bored 61]

I took the 120 hour course from them in 2013.  We performed weight and balance and carb sync on a really nice 1050 KF 4.  I agree that they are both pretty talented both in what they know but also in their skills as teachers.  When I went through I added on Powered Parachute and Trikes.  So I only lack the glider module.  I've missed adding it on two times because of scheduling conflicts but will eventually get that cert too.  

As you said, I can work on anybodies S-LSA or E-LSA for fun or profit. 

Maybe I read it wrong, but I didn't think Joey was being very complimentary of their teaching skills, or at least teaching the subject advertised....

Mark

I've read and re-read what I wrote below in an effort to not piss anybody off.  I have no intention of doing that.  Sometimes we have to learn stuff we would rather not learn. 

No, I guess he wasn't.  I was and am.  The 120 hour course is comprised of just a little taste of practical methods and exercises and the rest was the presentation of resources and law.  To the extent that Joey complimented their "impressive resumes"  I think we agree.  He didn't think much of the curriculum as I understood him.  That's fine.  I hope he didn't miss that these aircraft are built under standards set by ASTM International and the first requirement of anyone signing off an annual inspection is to obtain the ASTMI approved documentation for the aircraft.  The annual is then performed according to that documentation which walks step by step through inspection and repair.  If there is any deviation from those steps and practices a letter of authorization from the holder of the ASTMI airworthiness certificate must be applied for and approved.  That letter then becomes part of the aircraft documents. The course could not possibly cover every detail of every powered parachute out there; so several hours were spent on how to get the resources for YOUR make and model of aircraft.  Similarly, if repair and maintenance is performed on Rotax engines then the Rotax approved repair and maintenance manuals must be consulted and followed.  Ditto for other engines approved by ASTMI.  Failure to inspect and repair according to this documentation is a violation of Federal Aviation Regulations and carries with it penalties in accordance with administrative and civil law.  Finally, these courses are reviewed and approved by FAA and include each of those modules,  including theory of operation,  as a complete package.  While it is true that Carol wrote most of the curriculum, it wasn't in the blind. The feds REQUIRED the courses to include this material.  So, the beef should be with the feds, not with Rainbow Aviation.  For now, the only place one can get these certificates is from Rainbow.  Perhaps others will write new course materials and open other schools.     

I hold a State of California life teaching credential for 7th through 14th grades in the subject area of vocational education.  I stand by my appraisal of their skills as teachers.  I spent years trying to convince young men and women that learning electrical theory and trigonometry for instance would make them better technicians in the career path THEY HAD CHOSEN. My point is that if you choose to obtain a license or certificate then you are required to learn and uphold the requirements of that license or certificate. Very smart people have determined over a very long period of time that theory is essential to understanding safe operating procedures and methods.  That's not just my opinion; ALL TECHNICAL SCHOOLS INCLUDE IT!  The students that followed my advice mostly ended up in supervisory positions while the others....well they hung on to their opinions I guess.  

 

I should add to the above lengthy post that lots of E-LSA aircraft have none of that documentation available.  Many where grandfathered in to the E-LSA category because FAA wanted to do something about what were called fat ultralights used in instruction.  Any S-LSA or E-LSA aircraft registered after the deadline for the grandfather interval had to have the full ASTM documentation and an approved S-LSA built and approved.  

Edited 10 Dec 2015 by Emory Bored

[marksires 484]

I was in no way bashing Rainbow or the Carpenters. They are some of the most knowledgeable folks out there. I would not hesitate to take my plane there. The info presented was interesting but in now way prepared us to do an annual. 

Didn't think you were, you were very complimentary overall, but didn't think this class was quite as advertised.  It happens.

Mark

 

[dav8or 20]

 

I did however get the cert and a trip to the local FSDO will make me the legal repairman for my ELSA Fat Avid when I get it finished. And THAT will be really cool!

 

I am curious to know how the Fat Avid is qualified to be registered as E-LSA? Did the kit manufacturer submit for that or were they ever sold as S-LSA?

 

Dan

[Av8r3400 1179]

The only way it could is if it was registered during the open registration period which ended January 31, 2007. 

This is how my yellow Kitfox got its E-LSA certificate. 

[Av8r3400 1179]

I hope Chris' Fat Avid build is actually a rebuild.  Otherwise it isn't and never will be E-LSA. 

[ChrisBolkan 130]

Chris's FAT Avid is definitely a rebuild. He got the plane complete with ELSA registration. The original builder registered ELSA during those very confusing initial Sport Plane years when no one especially the FAA knew what they were doing.

Lucky him.......er me!

Chris

[Av8r3400 1179]

Lucky me, too!

That initial period was meant to get all the "fat" ultralights registered as something legal.  Some of us just took advantage of the loophole as long as it was there. 

[LSaupe 123]

I wish there was a course (other than a full A&P course curriculum) which allowed a sport pilot to inspect and sign off an annual on a bird that meets the requirement of LSA that is registered as EAB.  Sure think it would make the buy and sell process much easier.

[SuberAvid 617]

Larry, Chris,

Thanks for clarifying how the fat Avid and KF could be LSA.  I was wondering how that could be.  Fortunately for me I got my repairman certificate for mine as EAB.  And I convinced Jack to register his as EAB rather than just a modification to his Avid.(Surprising that his Avid Plus could be registered that way when about the only thing reused from the Avid were the wing parts and horizontal but that shows how odd he FAA requirements are).  Anyway, it is sure nice to have the repairman's certificates.  I suggest everyone who can, do whatever to get yours even if it doesn't make much sense as pointed out above.

[dav8or 20]

Hi Chris,

I didn't realize it was a rebuild. That is very lucky for you. I am just lucky that for now I have an A&P friend who enjoys coming over to the hangar while I go through the inspection with him. I just buy him lunch and will take him flying in his planes whenever I can since he let his medical lapse while waiting for re-form and does not plan to try the medical again. It is not quite as easy for my Grumman Yankee although I do have another friend who is an IA so I get to do an owner assisted annual.

Dan