Airdale Backcountry PROUD New Owner : )

[briankbski 18]

HELLO

 

I am the PROUD new owner of an Airdale Backcountry kit (exactly the same as shown on Airdale's home page.  Serial Number is 007.  The original owner of this kit was Mr. John Larsen.   S/N 007 has has never flown and I am the 3rd owner of the kit.  It is probably 50% complete.  My wife and I picked it up two weeks ago.  We were VERY fortunate to have been able to arrange a meeting with Mr. Jerry Matison (former owner of Airdale).  We also got to see his Airdale S/N 001.  It is in his hanger on floats ... what a BEAUTIFUL sight.  We took a number of photos.  See attachments.  The plane shown on Airdale's home page is Jerry's plane but on wheels.  My plane has the extended speed wings ... not the STOL wings as Jerry's plane has.   Oh ya, the speed wings are missing the fiberglass wing tips.  Apparently, I can order these from Kit Fox.  I have seen an article, detailed in writing and photos, where someone installed these on a wing similar to mine.

 

I was also very fortunate to be able to speak with Mr. John Larsen prior to purchasing my kit.  As most of you know he has been involved with Avid, Kit Fox and Airdale and has helped design many of the features of their aircraft.

 

The wings and fusealge are covered and painted with initial silver coat.  I will be stripping off the dacron from the wings to get a better look before I recover them.  One wing has the new Airdale ethanol resistant fuel tank, the other wing has the regular fiberglass fuel tank.  I will try to post a few photos of the kit as it sits now.

 

Question ... 1) how do i take off the fabric from the wings ... just pull it off?  There isn't any rib stitching, apparently just "glued" on.

         

I also have a COMPLETE Avid Catalina kit (with a Great Plains 2180 cc VW engine kit) that I MIGHT be selling.  Totally complete kit down to the fabric covering and interior.  The kit is probably 20% complete.  Kit number 148AB.  It has ALL the recommended factory upgrades and is in EXCELLENT condition.  ALL parts are accounted for except the two halves of the engine cowl.  Engine mount is for a Rotax 582.

 

I say MIGHT be selling the Catalina because it took me 5 years to find a kit that was so complete and so untouched. ABSOLUTELY love the functionality of an amphib like the Catalina.  It is going to be very difficult to part with it.   I MIGHT put the extended STOL Heavy Hauler Catalina wings on the Airdale???   When I was speaking with Mr. Larsen I asked if the longer Catalina wings would fit the Airdale and he replied ... yup, pretty much any Avid or Kit Fox wing will fit as they all use he same mounting configuration (distance from the lead edge tube to the trailing edge tube and from there to the bottom fuselage mount point.  Just to be sure I am going to measure to make sure.  Mr. Larsen said the Airdale should perform even better with the longer Catalina STOL HH wings than the standard STOL wings.  Any thoughts???

 

Looking forward to any and all comments.

 

Brian

Captaincanuck

 

[EDMO 1078]

Congrats on your Airdale Brian,

     That's my favorite Avid - I watched one of the first 5 being finished - I thought it was #1, but guess not.....

- I have a set of used Kitfox droop tips if you want to save a couple of bucks, unless you want Hoerner tips.

     Depending on the glue used, MEK might soften the glue so you can pull fabric off?  The trailing edge may bend easily.

     Why would you not think the wings were built right?   Did you talk to the builder?  If it was John Larson, or one of the Airdale crew,  it was built as good as anyone could!

Welcome to the AFF group - Where is your home?

Hoping you continue to post as your bird progresses and we get some flying reports.

EDMO

One side note:  Before you make permanent plans to mount the Cat wings on the Airdale, you need to see if the struts of either wing will fit - otherwise, you will be modifying or making new struts. 

     Those longer wings might give you a slightly shorter takeoff, not that you need it, but probably a little slower cruise.

     The Airdale wings use .083 wall spars, but I don't know what the Cat uses, or what the gross weight is for those long wings.  You could need larger tailfeathers with the long wings? 

     And, how can you sell the Cat without the long wings

Ed

Edited 16 Jul 2015 by Ed In Missouri

[Bandit 286]

Congrats on your new purchase! If you worked with Jerry he is a top notch guy. Wished he still owned Airdale. My friend from Mpls has a flying Airdale with a O200 in it.

Edited 16 Jul 2015 by Bandit

[C5Engineer 1170]

Very cool find! Welcome to the group. Thanks for joining and sharing your info. That Airdale on floats is the one that was in all the magazines and brochures. I would hang onto the Catalina. Not sure how big of a project you want but a few of us have talked about using those wings but no one wanted to build a set and do all the work. With the extended speed wings and a 912 you will have a very sweet airplane there to finish up.

The fabric on my wings was so old I was able to cut it at the trailing edge and just peel it off without too much trouble.

Once again welcome and Thank you!

[MarkD 53]

I think you will be surprised at how easily the fabric will come off.  That is a good reason to remove it if it has not been stitched.  That way you can properly rib stitch the wing after you recover. 

 

Because I am such a skeptic when it comes to other unknown mechanics I think it is a great idea to uncover and inspect at this stage of the construction, especially if you are the third owner of a partially completed kit.  Who knows what was done and how well until you personally inspect the work. 

 

Remember, document everything with as many pictures as you can.  That will make the certification process go much smoother (after the paperwork part).

 

Congratulations for saving another neat airplane.

 

MarkD

[akflyer 1427]

Welcome aboard! Awesome first post! Glad you got a nice bird and you will get her in the air!

[briankbski 18]

THANK YOU to all who replied.  Everyone's input and suggestions are GREATLY appreciated.  I am kind of new at this building, owning and flying my own plane hobby.  lol  Definitely a childhood dream to build and fly.  I will definitely keep everyone up to date on my progress with posts and photos.  With owning my own business free time comes at a premium so unfortunately, this will be a slow process.  I also promised my wife I would complete the last few "yard projects" on my "honey to do list" over the next TWO summers.  Only SMALL things like installing a Lock Stone patio and sidewalks,  assemble two "car ports" and set up a enclosed gazebo for her new hot tub, which she will be getting next summer.  The least I can do for her support of letting me chase my dream of flying.  I am knee deep into the Lock Stone.  Having fun, but man o man is it a LOT of work.  GOOD thing our winters are long and I have heat in the garage so I can work on the Airdale.

 

With respect to the wings I forgot to mention approximately the top 1/3 from the leading edge back there is fiberglass or aluminum sheeting under the dacron.  Would that be why there isn't any rib stitching???  Also, on the leading edge spare there is also the extruded plastic airfoil.

 

The engine in this Airdale is the Status EA81 with belt PSRU.  Spoke to Jerry about this and his plane has exactly the same set up and apparently it has more than enough power and performs great even when it is on floats.

 

C5Engineer ... I like the suggestion of keeping the Catalina, think that is what I will do, in the short term ... hmmmmmm ... wonder how I can get that one by my wife.   Will let you know how that works out.  LOL  Yes, the Airdale on floats in the photo I posted is Jerry Matison's and the one on the Airdale home page.  Not sure if it is the one in magazines or brochures.  I have never seen the articles.

 

Ed ... as for the wing tips I am not sure the pros and cons of installing either the droop wing tips or the horner wing tips?  I will have to add that to my list of recommended reading and research it a little.  My Catalina has the droop wing tips like you see on a Mark lV.   I live in Canada 15 minutes east of the city of Thunder Bay, Ontario.  Live in a partially sheltered bay on Lake Superior.  My plan (initially with the Catalina now with the Airdale) is to "fly from home"  use my home as my base of operations  ... Skis in the winter and floats in the summer.  My front yard is a sandy beach (well, at least in the summer time it is).  lol   About 2 months ago I picked up a unused pair of Avid wheel through skis from Barnstormers.  Jerry Matison has exactly the same skis and he said they fit and work perfectly with the Airdale.

 

Bandit ... please pass on my contact information to your friend from Minniapolis MN.  I would LOVE to speak to other owners of this aircraft.   Their experience would be invaluable and a GREAT asset while I complete this project.

 

Best Regards

Brian

[EDMO 1078]

Brian,

    Thanks again for posting.

  Regarding the material under the fabric about 1/3 from leading edge:  Avid sold a fiberglass cover for that area.  I think some have used aluminum.  Some don't use anything there.  I have 1mm plywood on my Foxy.  The rib stitching should start at the end of it.   I don't know if Avid says to glue the fabric all the way to rear of the fiberglass cover, or just a portion of it at the leading edge.  I would like to know.

Just a side note - There have been no documented cases, that I have heard, of the fabric coming loose when only glued on Kitfoxes.  Ribstitching is optional.

  Re the plastic leading edge:  That is probably the one sold by Kitfox, and is a real good protection for the leading edge.  There have been debates on how much it might or might not affect speeds or lift.  Some have added it over the fabric, and others have put it under the fabric.   I think I posted in FILES AND FORMS, the template and my modified Kitfox instructions on how to apply it.

  Keep posting as you build, and ask anything on here and you should get several opinions, whether we agree or not!

EdMO

Edited 17 Jul 2015 by Ed In Missouri

[1avidflyer 1983]

Aluminum sheet was used on Avid MK IVs on top front of wings. It's about 16" wide. It helps the fabric stay straight on the front of the wing rather than dipping down between the false ribs when it's real tight. Probably strengthens the wing a bit as well. Kitfox now uses a similar system with fiberglass called the laker leading edge. Just looking at your pictures and although you say its a speedwing, the wings look full length in the pictures. I thought I could count 5 hangers for the flaperons, the shorter speedwing would only have 4. Looks like they used speedwing ribs (flat bottomed instead of concave like the stol wing) and long spars. Probably not a bad setup. My first ride in an Avid was made just that way. It seemed to get off the ground good, and cruised faster than the stol wing also. I live up in northern Mn, not very far from you actually. Chisholm, Mn. Jim Chuk

[EDMO 1078]

Jim, 

      I am fairly sure that the Magnum had the fiberglass cover option - But I wouldn't bet on it - Could have been used on the Airdale?   I believe he said it had the extended wings?  I think the longer wingspars .083 wall were standard with the Airdales.   I will have to search my photos, seems like the Airdale I watched had the fiberglass covers on wings?

   That was 20 years ago....

EdMO

Edited 17 Jul 2015 by Ed In Missouri

[EDMO 1078]

Oh - Just reading my Avid Magnum manual, and remembered that the Airdale also had STAINLESS STAPLES thu the fabric into the capstrips - NO RIBSTITCHING NEEDED!   I remembered David Goode telling me that when he built his Airdale.

EDMO

Edited 17 Jul 2015 by Ed In Missouri

[Dusty 126]

Stainless staples sound like an excellent idea!

I havn't seen any fabric pull away yet,the glue must be awesome stuff, especially with undercamber, but there is always a first time!

[EDMO 1078]

Dusty,

      The way it was explained to me, was that the ends of the staples are cut on an angle in opposite directions, so when it goes thru the wood, each end bends the opposite way a little, and don't come back out very easily.

They used 1/2" wide x 3/8" long stainless staples, and I would have to look at the manual for the spacing, but probably same as ribstitching?   Note:  The fabric is glued to the capstrips before stapeling, and reinforcement tape is used under the staples, and I think, another re-tape on top of staples, and finish tape over that??  I would have to read the manual again for that too.

      some planes have used screws, and others with metal ribs used wire clips.

Kitfox says it is an option to ribstitch, but not necessary....

EdMO

Edited 17 Jul 2015 by Ed In Missouri

[C5Engineer 1170]

Glue worked fine for years but had a tendency to unstick from the uncambered ribs on the outboard ends. I've seen quite a few early ones without stitching. We stitched mine but it added a good 15 hrs to the project.

[EDMO 1078]

I don't think he would need it underneath with the speedribs.   I have the modified Riblett ribs, and may just put some staples in the top of the ribs in the propeller slipstream.

EdMO

[briankbski 18]

WOW, so cool.  Love this ... so much information.  And here I thought I was the ONLY Nut Bar when it comes to planes, building, Avids, etc ... my wife thinks I am the only one.  Now I can assure her there are more of me out there and she is not married to a kook!  LOL    I am like a kid at Christmas when I start talking about planes!

 

Thanks to all for responding.  Look forward to the continued dialogue.  

 

Ed ... on a side note, last night I read your post regarding donating to the administrator of this site to help off set costs.   GREAT idea.   I will contact him and make a contribution.   If the replies to my first post are any indication of how helpful this site can be than it will be well worth it.  : ) 

[EDMO 1078]

Brian,

     Suberavid (Randy) has the same engine that came with the Airdale, and he flies the shit out of it in Alaska.  But, if you decide to go with the IVO IFA, then be sure to read all the mods and problems that have been solved on the posts on here.

     Akflyer (Leni) is the instigator of this madness by starting the site.  He spent a lot to keep it going with lots of problems with hackers in the past - I am sure he would appreciate more donations to keep it going.

EdMO

Edited 17 Jul 2015 by Ed In Missouri

[briankbski 18]

Jim ... a few times a year my job takes me to Fort Frances and occasionally I get to Duluth.  If I am going to be in your area I will contact you to see if we can meet up and take a look at your Avid.  What are you flying?  Power plant?  

 

Brian

[KFfan 151]

And here I thought I was the ONLY Nut Bar when it comes to planes, building, Avids, etc ... my wife thinks I am the only one.  Now I can assure her there are more of me out there

 

Be careful what you wish for

Lou

 

Thanks to all for responding.  Look forward to the continued dialogue.  

 

Ed ... on a side note, last night I read your post regarding donating to the administrator of this site to help off set costs.   GREAT idea.   I will contact him and make a contribution.   If the replies to my first post are any indication of how helpful this site can be than it will be well worth it.  : ) 

[Av8r3400 1179]

Having just finished stitching the ribs on the mangy fox, I am a big fan of that method.

Staples or screws attach only to one side relying on the cap strip glue to hold the fabric. Stitching wraps completely around the rib securing the fabric to the opposite side. Much more secure and just as easy to do.

[EDMO 1078]

I have gotten more info from the guys on this site than I ever got from Sport Aviation and Kitplanes mags combined.

Thanks to Leni, and all of you.

EdMO

Looks like I just covered up Larry's post - Sorry - go back and read it.

Edited 17 Jul 2015 by Ed In Missouri

[EDMO 1078]

Larry,

     If my fabric pulls the capstrips off of my ribs, then it is time to go back and rebuild the wings - and use more glue!

I just bought my 3rd set of 9460 cans from Kitfox for this bird...I think I'm on the 4th rebuild/mod on my wings/tail..

EdMO

Edited 18 Jul 2015 by Ed In Missouri

[dholly 718]

Remember to use divergent staples. One tip goes in and down, the other goes in and up. Stitching may be superior but in reality properly stapled fabric is plenty secure on our airplanes at our speeds IMHO. Russ put a new wing tank in his plane and could not pull the staples out.

[EDMO 1078]

Doug,

     If you look at - well, all of mine anyway - Arrow T50 staples are made standard with the divergent tips.  These are the kind of staples you use in construction, like stapling insulation into studs on a wall, or tarpaper on a roof - not the kind used to staple paper in the office.

EdMO

Edited 18 Jul 2015 by Ed In Missouri

[dholly 718]

Ed - obviously we're not talking office supply staples here. I can't speak to arrow brand staples specifically, but I have chisel tip staples are typically used in upholstery and other jobs where optimum penetration is necessary. Again, different staples for different jobs.