Copilot brakes on MK IV

[JayKoit 1]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to the forum but looking to buy an MK IV or a KF 2/3. However, I'm a student pilot who wants to finish my training in my own plane , and everything for sale right now only has brakes on the pilot side , so I'll need to install copilot brakes for my instructor. How difficult would it be to source the parts for this? What about installation, does require a ton of work to retrofit on a ready-to-fly Avid? Thanks and I look forward to hearing your feedback!

[wypaul 448]

It is not a big job but does require a little welding and bending. The rudder peddles have to be removed to weld the tabs for the brakes on the Avid but maybe not on the KF. Might want to make sure you have a CFI that is willing and experienced in an Avid or KF before you make up your mind, many will not. I put them in my IV for a friend that flies with me that does my flight reviews, might say something about what he thinks about my rudder skills.

Edited 9 Feb 2014 by Paul S

[marksires 484]

I think you should check with EAA first.  While it is legal for you to get instruction in an experimental, I don't believe you can get primary instruction in an experimental, I think you are only allowed to get transition/type specific training.

Mark

[EDMO 1078]

I think the rule is that you cannot rent an AB for flight instruction - AB Experimentals cannot be used for "commercial purposes" - You can use your own plane and pay the instructor.

I believe this should be in "Technical Tasks" -

But anyway:  I don't think you can use the MC-1 or MC-5 - (the ones with the reservoir on the MC) - for dual brakes.  The MC-4 or MC-4A with the separate reservoir can be interconnected for dual brakes.

EDMO

Edited 9 Feb 2014 by Ed In Missouri

[Av8r3400 1179]

How far along are you in your training?

Is your instructor requiring brakes or he is a no go?

[JayKoit 1]

Thanks everyone, here's where I'm at: I actually got the idea of training in my own experimental from a sport pilot CFI who is also a LSRM, SP DPE, and Independent certified rotax repairman. And he instructs in tail wheel LSA's as well. From what I've been told it is allowed as long as it's my plane -- but I'm the only person who is allowed to do this as the sole owner.

Av8r3400, I haven't specifically discussed whether or not he requires brakes on his side yet, he may not, but I just wanted to see how pricey/difficult it would be to add the brake pedals, master cylinders, lines, etc. also, sorry for the newbie question (and for being miscategorized) but what is the mc-4/mc-5? Different types of master cylinders? Thanks again

[akflyer 1427]

I would say that if your going to do TW training in it, you will want to take the extra time to put in the brakes on the right side.  Yes you can do your primary training in your own plane.  While these planes are easy to fly and to/ land, the added cost of putting in the brakes is MUCH cheaper than fixing the damage caused by a ground loop.

 

While your at it, I would recommend getting the pedal mods from MikeSK on this site.  They will make the brakes much more effective and again, the added cost is much cheaper than rebuilding your plane.

 

[EDMO 1078]

Yes, I was referring to the master cylinders -  I don't think the ones with reservoirs on top can be used for dual brakes???

You may not have to have dual brakes for instruction, depending on your instructor -  but you do have to have them for a BFR, which, IMO, is another twisted FAR.

I agree with Leni - far cheaper to add dual brakes than repair ground-loops!

EDMO

Edited 9 Feb 2014 by Ed In Missouri

[Av8r3400 1179]

I did all of my tailwheel and Kitfox training in my Kitfox.  I do not have brakes on the right side.  We started with me on the right side to get the handling down, then once I could land and roll out without brakes from the right, I switched to the left seat.  My instructor is a good friend of mine, JimS on TeamKitfox.

 

Personally, I don't see the need for the weight, and more importantly, or the complexity of plumbing of brakes on the right side of these planes.

[akflyer 1427]

I share PART of Larry's sentiment.  There is a different feel flying right seat and it could hose up a new guy that does not have any stick time when he transitions back and forth and has to train both arms and hands   That said, I too have no issues going back and forth, but I have lots of time in various planes.  It would be worth exploring to do as Larry did and start right seat if you dont want to add any money or weight to the plane.  But in reality, I bet we are talking about less than 2 pounds to the airframe to add brakes on the right side.. nothing a good dump before flying wouldn't cure  

 

[1avidflyer 1983]

Hi ED, You say that you need dual brakes for a BFR.  I never heard of that before.  If so, all of my BFRs were ill eagle.  Where is that rule written?  JIm Chuk

[EDMO 1078]

I prefer flying in the right seat - but will have brakes on the left side too, so my plane will comply with BFR regulations.

EDMO

[EDMO 1078]

Jim,

     I don't have a copy of the FARs right now, but it is in there - You HAVE to have dual controls for a BFR, according to the FAA - now, where the check pilot draws the line at "dual controls" is a different story. 

It even goes so far as saying that the flip-over control wheels as used on some planes is approved.

    A friend of mine built and flys a Hummel H5, which is single-place.  He has to rent a 172 for his BFR.

I think we have been thru this before in a different post.

EDMO

Maybe you can go to the FAA site and get the BFR regs?  And post the "dual controls" part on here?

ED

Edited 9 Feb 2014 by Ed In Missouri

[akflyer 1427]

I have done BFRs in a PA 12 that didnt have brakes in the back seat.. brakes are not a primary flight control therefore you dont have to have dual brakes for a BFR or for primary training as far as that goes... but its not a bad idea.. I just happened to witness the same PA 12 that was used at the flight school do a sweet ground loop while I was standing there waiting for the plane to come back on a training flight with the instructor and another student in it.. I was planning on taking the plane for a weekend camping trip, but that got changed real quick... it is up to the instructor to decide if he wants to instruct without brakes on his side.  IMO, it is kinda dumb for an instructor to risk it in a tailwheel as we all know just how fast things can go bad.

 

[Av8r3400 1179]

But in reality, I bet we are talking about less than 2 pounds to the airframe to add brakes on the right side.. nothing a good dump before flying wouldn't cure

 

I agree with the good healthy dump theory, but that doesn't solve the complicated plumbing and multiple unions and fittings that are required and will leak...

[EDMO 1078]

Well, I guess my logic about brakes being part of the controls is wrong.  I got to thinking about some of the old WW1 planes that don't even have brakes - guess a BFR in one of them with dual controls would be OK?

But, since mine will have brakes, they will be dual.  Fittings are not much more than on single brakes, and if installed correctly, shouldn't leak.

EDMO

Edited 9 Feb 2014 by Ed In Missouri

[SuberAvid 617]

My position is that I do not want dual brakes on a plane that I am going to fly any non pilot pasengers in.  I understand it for a training airplane but what are you going to use it for in the future?  I don't want anyone accidently helping me with my braking on a landing.  That is a good way to end up on your back IMO.

[EDMO 1078]

Randy,  You explain that to your passenger as you strap their feet to the seat, and remove the stick on their side...

EDMO

[JayKoit 1]

Thanks everyone, I have contacted the instructor I'm going to do the rest of my training with, and he doesn't require dual brakes, so I probably won't do it right away, but I think I will have them installed shortly after I get my certificate. My wife wants to fly with me, as well as learn to fly, so I think dual brakes makes sense in my situation because she wants to be able to land the aircraft safely should something happen in flight, etc. I just got a message this morning from Mikesk about getting his pedal mods for both sides and basically what to get from Matco to finish out the project, so I'm good to go! I appreciate all the (quick) feedback from the users in this forum.

 

BTW I'm looking at an Avid MK IV HH but it has no trailer, just a tow bar, so to get it here I'll need a flatbed trailer for transport...can anyone tell me what the wheel base and wheel track is on a stock MK IV? just need to know the minimum length flatbed I'd need to get to make the move...thanks!

[JayKoit 1]

Also, what do I need to know about towing on a flatbed vs a custom boat/modified purpose built trailer? I don't want to bend my new plane or destroy the tailwheel!

[SuberAvid 617]

Thanks everyone, I have contacted the instructor I'm going to do the rest of my training with, and he doesn't require dual brakes, so I probably won't do it right away, but I think I will have them installed shortly after I get my certificate. My wife wants to fly with me, as well as learn to fly, so I think dual brakes makes sense in my situation because she wants to be able to land the aircraft safely should something happen in flight, etc. I just got a message this morning from Mikesk about getting his pedal mods for both sides and basically what to get from Matco to finish out the project, so I'm good to go! I appreciate all the (quick) feedback from the users in this forum.

 

BTW I'm looking at an Avid MK IV HH but it has no trailer, just a tow bar, so to get it here I'll need a flatbed trailer for transport...can anyone tell me what the wheel base and wheel track is on a stock MK IV? just need to know the minimum length flatbed I'd need to get to make the move...thanks!

Better make sure your wife doesn't doesn't tend to put a dent in the floorboard when she rides with you as a passenger. LOL  I supose one could install lockout valve in the system on the passenger side but that just adds complication to the brake line plumbing.

 

You don't need brakes at all to learn how to fly an Avid if you have a 2000' or better runway to learn on.  I taught Jeff last year and he did great.  He got a little of the feel of it in the rt seat but then we switched places and he had the brakes in the Lt seat and I didn't in the rt  seat.  Just teach or learn to fly the plane without using brakes and then add brakes to the equation once they get the landings figured out.

[dynomike 91]

I completely agree with randy,these planes coast to a stop pretty quickly without brakes,i actually thought having the brakes was a hinderence the first few landings .