1avidflyer

Looks good! Lots of work, but all worth it today! Take care, Jim Chuk

Did some test flying on Sunday. Plane exceeded my expectations.

If it's close by, I would go look at it to try to better see what he's talking about. Maybe it's not as bad as it sounds. Big difference between specks of rust starting to show that were sanded off and repainted before the recover, and rusted tubes that you could stick a sharp punch through. I did the first one when I recovered my MK IV, but would never cover the second situation. If it was totally rusted and the guy just recovered it to pick up a quick buck, he wouldn't tell you about it I think. If nothing else, you will get to see another airplane and if you look hard at it, you always learn from that. Take care, Jim Chuk

A new Avid Mark IV popped up locally for under $10,000. He told me he just recovered the aircraft but he did it over a possibly rusty fuesalage. So I guess the fabric that he just put on needs to be cut off and the fuesalage rebuilt? Could someone tell me why anyone would do this?

Apparently its got a Rotax 582, new prop and new fabric. He didn't give me any other info on the phone other then he needs the money.

Couple of posts back mention 300' per minute climb with 2 guys in the Sube. powered plane. My flying partner and I were practiceing landings again yesterday with our 582 powered Avid MK IV. Between the two of us, that's probably 420 lbs, (I'm the light one) and I had about 15 gallons of fuel at least. It was about 35 F and we were on skis. We were getting about 700' per minute climb. Empty weight on the plane is 585 lb. Take care, Jim Chuk

I have heard that the EA-81 can also be bored oversize and VW (?) pistons used. But not sure on that.

Mine is also 1.84 reduction, by Dave Johnson of Canada - he is dead now.

Stratus will exchange a reground cam and lifters for yours - used to be $125 plus shipping.

Ed in MO

The other option is buying a set of used wings if the Kitfox 2 deal is good enough, another set of wings could be found. I actually have a set of Avid Heavy Hauler wings hanging on the wall of the hangar that I will eventually get rid of. They have 14 gallon tanks in each wing. They have some damage, mostly just the rib tails broke off which is repairable. I had planed to fix them, cover them and then sell them. Haven't got to it yet. They should fit on a Kitfox, spacing on the wing carry through tubes is the same on both planes (27 1/2") You might have to customize the lift struts to get the right dihedral, but I'm not sure on that. I don't think Avid ever changed the lift strut location on the wings in their different models, I do know the ones on the Kitfox 3 are further out on the wing then the Kitfox 1 and 2 were. First Kitfox was a modified copy of the Avid, so many things are the same on these plane, especially on the early Kitfoxes. Take care, Jim Chuk

Assembly instructions would be easy to get, either from a fellow builder or an oem. Spars and drag tubes again easy to get from your local aluminum supplier. Nothing special about the fabric. Used or oem unassembled internals can be found if you look.

New Flapperons, ribs, fuel tanks will all need to come from either Airdale or Kitfox, though. Drawings for these don't exist.

Hi all, I've been working on the bent parts in my first Avid MK IV, and have been thinking it would be a good idea to make a battery mount and door to access it near the tail to help out the CG a bit. I've got a number of ideas, but it's often helpfull to see how someone else did it. Anyone have any pics they can post for me to see? Thanks, Jim Chuk

Thanks for the info Paul! Jim Chuk

Jim the brakes are Airheart brakes. I have them on my Q-2 and they work well if mounted so they float properly.

Here is a link to their website:

http://www.airheart-brakes.com/

Paul Spackman

Thanks, Ed, I did a bit more digging through my manual, don't know why I didn't see it allready, but I found the page that shows the tubes and all their pieces and lengths. Page F-6 in my manual. I'm going to google some of those parts and see what pops up. Thanks again, Jim

Jim,

I am not very good at posting photos - It looks like a standard Heim or Aurora fork end, with a 3/16 hole in it and about 3/16 between forks - The internal threaded part could be any size you choose, probably 1/4-28 or larger - I will see what the manual says, or if it just gives a part number.

Ed

The manual gives it as AN320-3. Well, DUH - thats the nut on the clevis bolt - No heim number found for the fork end - Just a KF part #.

The threaded adapter that the ends screw onto are AN490HT11P for the front, and AN490HT8P for the rear - dont know why they have to be different? Evidently, you have to make the step-down bushing that goes between the tube and the adapter - Dont see why you couldnt make this as one piece?

Parting Shot: The KF1 book gives the aluminum tube length as 106 3/8" and overall length, hole to hole, as 112 3/8, so it is about 6" shorter than my KF2..........ED

Something I'm leary of when I'm looking at an airplane add is when they say "new prop" Why would anyone replace a good prop and then turn around and sell the plane. I would then worry about a prop strike. Someone mentioned posting a wanted add on Barnstormers, I think that's good advice. If it's not up for sale 'oficially', it might give you a bit more time if it's a real good deal because others aren't racing there to beat you. Take care, Jim Chuk

I'm leary of buying an aircraft I can't fly anyway. Might have a good engine but it doesnt get off the ground

Thanks a bunch guys! That is really helpful. Ed, could you by any chance get a picture of that forked end on the tube? Thanks again, Jim

Jim,

I have the builder manual for the KF1 - If you need more info, I can check it for you.

Dougs photos look like what I have for the KF2, except the 1 and 2 used a fork end at the elevator.

ED in MO

The very first ride I ever had in and Avid was built a bit different. It had the long wings, but with the speedwing (flat bottom) ribs. That plane flew great, and the owner flew it to Oshkosh quite a few times with other Avids. He said it would cruise way faster than the others at the same RPM. About 15 MPH at the same RPM. He also had cleaned up the plane dragwise where ever he could as well. I was new to these planes then, but it seemed to get out very well at take off. Dough, I have to agree with you about good deals come by rarely. I've seen several and was tempted, but you have to act fast or they go to someone else. If I ever get busy and finish my Kitfox 4 with the 912 on it then I will have one. Other wise, how many airplanes should one man have.... 3 Avids, 2 Kitfoxes at the moment, only one flying. Glad I've got a good-make that WONDERFUL wife. Well I came in to check for any TFRs couse I'm off to get some skiflying time in with a friend and now spent a bunch of time here. Take Care, Jim Chuk

PS well we shot a bunch of landings on a lake, 2.2 hrs. He recently got his Private ticket in a C. 172 He used to fly a lot with me in my other Avid before he started taking lessons in the Cessna. He's got to learn to fly the Avid all over again . I keep taping the ball, he forgot how to use his feet with the Cessna. We're working on getting him his tailwheel endorsement. He'll get there!

Yes I flew a buddies MkIV with the extended "speed wings" and mine side by side multiple times in the course of a few days. I could get his in and out just as short, climb just as well and stall within a couple MPH of my C HH. The only real difference was his had a quicker roll rate and just felt a little more "sporty" Maybe that was due to him having 8.50s and I had heavy goodyear 24s on mine. What ever the reason, it was enough to make me want to build a set of speed wings to HH specs and extend them to the KF wing length... It may just be easier to get a set of kitfox IV -1200 wings and build them.. but what fun would it be to build from a kit when I can scrounge and build on my own :lol:/>/>

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I just went and took another look at the Avid with the 912. That is actually a speedwing, the add says he has the wing extentions, and when I read that, I looked a bit closer on the pictures. Wings have a flat bottom. Not that good for STOL operations with the short wingspan. Wing extentions help though. Not sure if they will equal a standard STOL or Heavy Hauler wing for STOL performance though. If the washout isn't to much with the extentions on, that would help cruise speeds though compared to the undercambered wing. If you really want to get somewhere, the short wings would be the ticket. Just my 2 cents worth. YMMV Take care, Jim Chuk

Roy,

I think you are being confused on the engine rpm and prop adjustments - A higher cruise would mean more pitch on the prop and a LOWER static rpm for the engine - Yes, more runway needed. I dont think you are going to see a significant increase in cruise anyway - these planes, except for the later Kitfoxes, have about a 100 mph wall because of the wing rib shape. There was a guy who put VGs UNDER the leading edge and claimed a 10 mph increase in cruise, but we cant verify that. If you arent going long distances, 5 or 10 mph wont make much difference anyway. Probably more important, is short takeoffs?

Presuming that this plane has a 3-blade Warp Drive prop, you could replace the blades with Whirlwind blades for about $900 and maybe gain some cruise. Suberavid just did a test with his Soob with these blades. He liked them.

OR, you could go with the Ivo in-flight-adjustable prop and probably get a little more cruise and still have short takeoffs, unless you are sport pilot or flying without medical and have to stay with ground-adjustable prop.

Thats my 2 cents worth.

Ed in MO

RMendler (?) Helps to have a first name at least to refer to you by, just went and did a search on Barnstormers for Kitfoxes, and did see someone had an E81 engine from a kitfox for $2000. Didn't read the add to get the specifics, but that might help to answer your question about what you could sell one for. Take care, Jim Chuk

Nice pics, thanks for posting them. Quite the country! Jim Chuk

A buddy and I had a great trip last week following the Iditarod to Nikolai and McGrath then back home. It was a fun trip through some country I had not been through. We experienced everything from beautiful sunshine to socked in clouds, snow, wind and an unplanned three day stop at Puntilla Lake/Rainy Pass Lodge for weather and parts. It was a fun and learning experience. Attached are a picture chronical of the trip. Left on Tuesday at noon and squeeked back into Wolf Lake on the ice with lights on at 7:30 Sat night.

I just looked at that Avid with the 912, and that is a sharp looking airplane. I have no doubt, that it would fly rings around the one with the Suberu engine. I would bet that he would have to throttel back to "just" cruise at 90 with the 912. STOL performance would have to be far better as well. Far lighter = better usefull load also. If it was me, I'd be focusing most of my attention on the Avid with the 912. $1000 more, but who knows, that might go away in a deal..... Take care, Jim Chuk

Hope the guy with the Sub isn't reading this, but it's just how I feel and you asked....

If I were to buy the yellow/white Avid in Wyoming, what could I sell the EA81 for, maybe as a FWF package and install a Rotax 912 or 914UL. I've been told atleast $25,000 to do the Rotax conversion which is definitely out of my budget at this moment but might be food for thought in the future.

From my quick calculations it would increase useful load from around 70-100lbs which would make a substancial increase in performance solo and dual with no decrease in HP and the fuel burn should remain around the same.

I'm also curious what can be done to increase cruise speed. The owner has told me I could turn out some higher RPM's with a prop adjustment and might be able to get to a 90mph cruise but I would take up alot more runway and turn higher RPM's which would in turn reduce engine life. Would Vortex Generators and Gap Seals help in any significant way? Would it be possible to mount the radiatior anywhere else? I've heard of the cowl being modified to mount the radiator up front and reduce alot of drag.

Thoughts, experience?

Hi Ed, thanks for the info. If you don't mind, I would like to talk rather than type, If you PM me your # I could give you a call. Mine is 218-254-2404 Thanks, Jim

Jim, I have a set of KF1 doors - actually may have more than one set - probably need lexan. Have some other spare parts too.

Let me know what you need.

If you want to PM me, I would like to know what the kit cost you. I've got a partial kit for sale.

ED in MO

Hi Doug, If it would be possible to give me the dimentions of the tube, I might have somthing here I can use. Looks like aluminum in the picture?? Also, if you don't mind, a closeup picture of each end. Thanks, Jim

Jim - I have the elevator P/P tube from my KF-3 lying around somewhere still. At worse, might need to cut it down a tad. And figure out how to ship the darn thing...

Hi all, A while back, I ran accross a Kitfox 1 kit that had very little done on it. I ended up bringing it home today, I don't intend to build it at this time, more likly going to roll it over and hopefully come out just a bit ahead on the deal. Not sure what will be best, part it out or keep it togeather. So far, it seems I'm missing the doors, and the elevator push-pull tube. The guy is going to look for them, so maybe they will still turn up. Anyway, that's the story for today. Here are a few pics. Got quite a few boxes of small parts, didn't put them on the floor with the big stuff for the pics, but it seems like most if not all of that stuff is there. Take care, Jim Chuk

PS last 2 pics of the wheel hubs and brakes. Never saw brakes like this before, anyone familar with them?

Doug, Maybe some day I'll finish my Kitfox 4 and will be able to give you a real answer, but what I've read and been told is that if you get the plane built and it weighs only 600 lbs, with a 912, you did pretty good. Not impossible by any means, but you have to be careful what you put in the plane. I'm trying to end up as light as I can, time will tell I guess. Maybe if I didn't keep having to rebuild bent up planes, I'd have more time to work on the Fox. Take care, Jim Chuk

Well, call me curious or just plain nosey, but was wondering how other 4-1200's with 912ul FWF weigh out.

Builder of my 4-1200 did two prior W&B. First one when newly built on bungee gear w/ solid Maule TW (600lbs. empty), second done with Grove main gear, upgraded 2-leaf tailspring from Kitfox and a few other geegaw add-ons (668lbs.). I added 21-8.00x6 tires and a 3-leaf tailspring, but removed the solid Maule TW in favor of a smaller, lighter Aviation Products Inc. TW, so I really wanted (needed) to do a new weigh-in and W&B calculations.

Finally was able to check it off the to-do list this past weekend. Since I only have a half-hanger (gotta love those folding wings), we had to do this out on the ramp in a bit of wind so it probably isn't exactly perfect. Close enough for govmint work though, as the saying goes. So here are my results:

Left Main = 294lbs.

Right Main = 295lbs.

Tail Wheel = 78lbs.

Empty weight = 667lbs.

CG = 13.07"

A quick calc looks like (2) 200lb guys w/ 20gals fuel and lunch in the sack would be well within the envelope and under MTOW. In fact, if we did this right, it would appear you cannot possibly load the aircraft outside the Fwd or Aft CG in any way without exceeding the 1200lb. Gross Weight Limitation. Actually putting heavy pilots in the Aircraft moves the CG forward. Weight above the 40lb. limitation in the baggage sack is the only way to get even close to an Aft CG situation. Great design for an aircraft!

Weren't we just talking about wing folding issues with a plane that had a dorsal fin added on it? Wonder if that is an issue at all here? If I remember right, the flaperon counterweights ran into the added fin area. Just something to think about. Did you by any chance see that Kitfox 4 in Kansas about a month ago? It had a 912, low time, guy was asking $22,000 for it. He had bought it to learn how to fly, and it was to much for him. He bought an Ercoupe, and had one plane to many. That one had the wheels turning in my mind. I had talked to the guy's flight instructor, and he told me about the plane. He was really impressed with it. It probably sold quick, but if it didn't, it would be worth looking into. Closer too! Another topic: Ed, you said you saw an early Avid being built in Alaska. Did that plane by any chance belong to a guy named Jim Haney? Poor guy, brought it back to Mn, about half done, but got cancer and passed away before he could finish it. A flying buddy of mine ended up buying it, and finished it. I never met Jim Haney, he must have been quite a guy, he was on at least one of the expeditions that dug out the Glacier Gal P 38 in Greenland, and he also had something to do with the Global Explorer Dean Wilson designed. Take care, Jim Chuk

I live in Casper, WY and would be happy to look at it with you if I am free to do so. Let me know when you plan on being there and I will see what I can do.

Paul

Joey, glad it's working out for you! Just wondering what your EGTs are doing, and how you are manageing them. When you were getting the 1500 FPM climb rate, what RPM were you turning? Thanks, Jim Chuk

I put an hour on the prop today and all I can say is WOW!! For starters a vibration I have had since the first time I flew this airplane is GONE. The Ivo is WAY smoother than the Warp. I saw climb rates I have never seen with my airplane today that were pushing 1500fpm. After putting in the pitch in straight and level I picked up 15mph. You can feel it accelerate when bumping in the pitch. I am VERY happy with this set up!!

Not the best picture or installation perhaps, but here is what I did on my Kitfox 4. (got to get back working on that one of these days!) Take care, Jim Chuk

Three or four years ago, I flipped my Avid MK IV over while landing too fast in deep snow. I recovered the plane then, and have to say, the guy who built the plane did a lousy job on the epoxy glueing of ribs to spars. I don't think he used any or for sure not enough cotton flox to stiffen up the epoxy and it was very runny and didn't stay in place very well. None the less, none of the joints were broke loose! I did clean and sand that epoxy and add more so there were decent fillets on all the joints just so I felt better about it, but apparently it wasn't necessary. I did hear that Kitfox or Avid did make a wing with no epoxy used just to show it could be done and the fabric held things in place. Can't show proof of that, so take that with a grain of salt. Anyway, I wouldn't worry to much about the epoxy in your wings. I do know that Kitfox had an issue with some of their quickbuild wings on the Kitfox 4. Some of the epoxy was not holding and they supplied a type of crazy glue to pour into the tiny joint to keep things in place. I think it was mentioned that the wings were moved to soon and the epoxy wasn't completly cured. I still have the paperwork from Kitfox for the repair that came with my Kitfox 4 project. Take care, Jim Chuk

Not saying I'm right, but I though that the 25 hr fly off time was if you were using a certified engine like a Lyc. or Cont. Didn't think that was the case with a 2 stroke. But I guess if the DAR lets it go,.... why argue with it. Congrats on getting the cert.! Now it's time to start putting time on that plane. Take care, Jim Chuk

PS Just was digging through some paperwork I had about Certification of Amateur built aircraft. The Advisory Circular #20-27D is what I was looking at. It is dated 6/22/1990, so it may have been changed, but here is what it says on page 12. Section 13, Flight Test Areas (paragraph) a. Amateur-built airplanes and rotorcraft will initially be limited to operation within an assigned flight test area for at least 25 hours when a type certificated (FAA-approved) engine/propeller combination is installed, or 40 hours when a noncertificated (i.e., modified type certificated or automobile) engine/propeller combination is installed. It goes on from there to talk about gliders, balloons ect, ect. I'm going to see if I can dig up an updated one.

PSPS Just dug some more on the FAA website, and AC 20-27G is the current AC for this. On page 27, Table 7 it gives the same info as the earlier AC 20-27D regarding phase 1 flight times depending on engine and propeller.

The FAA mandated passenger warning on the instrument panel that is required on experimental aircraft tells a lot. It says, This aircraft is amature built and does not comply with the Fedral Safty Regulations for standard aircraft. Interesting note, you are supposted to point this out and read it to any passenger before flight. Jim Chuk

Sometimes its hard to figure out which rules apply? Yes? I guess we all have to decide which ones we will follow.

ED in MO

I should have mentioned, none of my Avids had/have a blanket either. Take care, Jim Chuk

I didnt mean that the stock firewall with blanket was not OK - I just dont like the dirty blanket on outside.

I would guess that most inspectors have a lot more to look at, and assume your firewall meets standards.

I really dont think that one will ever put a micrometer on a firewall to see how thick it is.

In an extreme case, say a wood or plastic plane, with a plywood firewall and no blanket, would surely not get passed, so the FAA standards can be applied to a homebuilt, IMO.

I dont like flames in the cockpit - never had any - dont ever want any!

Thanks,

ED in MO