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Doug, Maybe some day I'll finish my Kitfox 4 and will be able to give you a real answer, but what I've read and been told is that if you get the plane built and it weighs only 600 lbs, with a 912, you did pretty good. Not impossible by any means, but you have to be careful what you put in the plane. I'm trying to end up as light as I can, time will tell I guess. Maybe if I didn't keep having to rebuild bent up planes, I'd have more time to work on the Fox. Take care, Jim Chuk

Well, call me curious or just plain nosey, but was wondering how other 4-1200's with 912ul FWF weigh out.

Builder of my 4-1200 did two prior W&B. First one when newly built on bungee gear w/ solid Maule TW (600lbs. empty), second done with Grove main gear, upgraded 2-leaf tailspring from Kitfox and a few other geegaw add-ons (668lbs.). I added 21-8.00x6 tires and a 3-leaf tailspring, but removed the solid Maule TW in favor of a smaller, lighter Aviation Products Inc. TW, so I really wanted (needed) to do a new weigh-in and W&B calculations.

Finally was able to check it off the to-do list this past weekend. Since I only have a half-hanger (gotta love those folding wings), we had to do this out on the ramp in a bit of wind so it probably isn't exactly perfect. Close enough for govmint work though, as the saying goes. So here are my results:

Left Main = 294lbs.

Right Main = 295lbs.

Tail Wheel = 78lbs.

Empty weight = 667lbs.

CG = 13.07"

A quick calc looks like (2) 200lb guys w/ 20gals fuel and lunch in the sack would be well within the envelope and under MTOW. In fact, if we did this right, it would appear you cannot possibly load the aircraft outside the Fwd or Aft CG in any way without exceeding the 1200lb. Gross Weight Limitation. Actually putting heavy pilots in the Aircraft moves the CG forward. Weight above the 40lb. limitation in the baggage sack is the only way to get even close to an Aft CG situation. Great design for an aircraft!

Weren't we just talking about wing folding issues with a plane that had a dorsal fin added on it? Wonder if that is an issue at all here? If I remember right, the flaperon counterweights ran into the added fin area. Just something to think about. Did you by any chance see that Kitfox 4 in Kansas about a month ago? It had a 912, low time, guy was asking $22,000 for it. He had bought it to learn how to fly, and it was to much for him. He bought an Ercoupe, and had one plane to many. That one had the wheels turning in my mind. I had talked to the guy's flight instructor, and he told me about the plane. He was really impressed with it. It probably sold quick, but if it didn't, it would be worth looking into. Closer too! Another topic: Ed, you said you saw an early Avid being built in Alaska. Did that plane by any chance belong to a guy named Jim Haney? Poor guy, brought it back to Mn, about half done, but got cancer and passed away before he could finish it. A flying buddy of mine ended up buying it, and finished it. I never met Jim Haney, he must have been quite a guy, he was on at least one of the expeditions that dug out the Glacier Gal P 38 in Greenland, and he also had something to do with the Global Explorer Dean Wilson designed. Take care, Jim Chuk

I live in Casper, WY and would be happy to look at it with you if I am free to do so. Let me know when you plan on being there and I will see what I can do.

Paul

Well, call me curious or just plain nosey, but was wondering how other 4-1200's with 912ul FWF weigh out.

Builder of my 4-1200 did two prior W&B. First one when newly built on bungee gear w/ solid Maule TW (600lbs. empty), second done with Grove main gear, upgraded 2-leaf tailspring from Kitfox and a few other geegaw add-ons (668lbs.). I added 21-8.00x6 tires and a 3-leaf tailspring, but removed the solid Maule TW in favor of a smaller, lighter Aviation Products Inc. TW, so I really wanted (needed) to do a new weigh-in and W&B calculations.

Finally was able to check it off the to-do list this past weekend. Since I only have a half-hanger (gotta love those folding wings), we had to do this out on the ramp in a bit of wind so it probably isn't exactly perfect. Close enough for govmint work though, as the saying goes. So here are my results:

Left Main = 294lbs.

Right Main = 295lbs.

Tail Wheel = 78lbs.

Empty weight = 667lbs.

CG = 13.07"

A quick calc looks like (2) 200lb guys w/ 20gals fuel and lunch in the sack would be well within the envelope and under MTOW. In fact, if we did this right, it would appear you cannot possibly load the aircraft outside the Fwd or Aft CG in any way without exceeding the 1200lb. Gross Weight Limitation. Actually putting heavy pilots in the Aircraft moves the CG forward. Weight above the 40lb. limitation in the baggage sack is the only way to get even close to an Aft CG situation. Great design for an aircraft!

Boone, NC. The aircraft is in Wyoming. It seems like a solid aircraft, hopefully I will get to drive out there in 2 weeks or so. Any purchasing advice? Any particular things to inspect and look for?

I live in Casper, WY and would be happy to look at it with you if I am free to do so. Let me know when you plan on being there and I will see what I can do.

Paul

I use 3800. No science, just the number I was told.

Look on the sand rail sites. You can get line locks for 20 bucks still. I have had one in my sand rail for YEARS and never had it fail.

:BC:/>/>

WHAT, pray tell - is a sand rail? Is that what we call dune buggies, made from VWs and other critters?

I had a mud rail once - rear engine 389 pontiac - real blast - and real wet!

ED in MO

So I got the controls all working perfectly. New cables, re mounting the flapperon horns and major adjustments did the trick. The control linkage now hard limits at the stick travel limit as it should to avoid stressing any other part of the control mechanism. I get approximately plus and minus 25 degrees of aileron travel stop to stop. I can pull in an additional 15 degrees of flaps, and still have the stick travel hard limited at the stick limits as it should. Full flaps and full aileron deflection provides almost exactly 40 degrees of total down travel. That was a major piece of work to get all figure out, but it is now functioning identical to my MKIV and Magnum.

I started replacing the myriad of hoses on the 912. While digging in, I found a break in the motor mount, in addition to a broken motor mount bolt I found earlier. Removed the engine yesterday. Am also removing the half inch spacers the builder used to space the engine mount off the firewall. They were unnecessary and drove the already forward CG more so. It will require minor firewall clearancing and some cowl modification, but since I am in there I might as well make it the way I think it should be.

One very important but perhaps not obvious thing I can see out about this 912 install is that washers must be placed between the engine mount and the block where the bolts secure the block to the mount. They weren't o this aircraft. On this plane EVERY mount to block bolt was loose (except the ones that mount to the gearbox, one was broken, and all of the loosness ended up resulting in a broken mount too. This is because the 4130 tubing the bolts go through to secure the block edge on hammer the aluminiuum edge on and the bolts lose torque almost immediately (I am guessing). I am re welding the broken mount and replacing all mounting bolts and installing washers per the attached sketch. Make sure your 912 install has washers! I found that AN6 washers fit perfectly on the 10mm metric bolts making a perfect surface between the tubing and the block. All four rear bolts and the bottom front bolts need washers.

I have attached a sketch because it is so hard to explain what I found.

ChrisB

engine bolts.pdf

So I got the controls all working perfectly. New cables, re mounting the flapperon horns and major adjustments did the trick. The control linkage now hard limits at the stick travel limit as it should to avoid stressing any other part of the control mechanism. I get approximately plus and minus 25 degrees of aileron travel stop to stop. I can pull in an additional 15 degrees of flaps, and still have the stick travel hard limited at the stick limits as it should. Full flaps and full aileron deflection provides almost exactly 40 degrees of total down travel. That was a major piece of work to get all figure out, but it is now functioning identical to my MKIV and Magnum.

I started replacing the myriad of hoses on the 912. While digging in, I found a break in the motor mount, in addition to a broken motor mount bolt I found earlier. Removed the engine yesterday. Am also removing the half inch spacers the builder used to space the engine mount off the firewall. They were unnecessary and drove the already forward CG more so. It will require minor firewall clearancing and some cowl modification, but since I am in there I might as well make it the way I think it should be.

One very important but perhaps not obvious thing I can see out about this 912 install is that washers must be placed between the engine mount and the block where the bolts secure the block to the mount. They weren't o this aircraft. On this plane EVERY mount to block bolt was loose (except the ones that mount to the gearbox, one was broken, and all of the loosness ended up resulting in a broken mount too. This is because the 4130 tubing the bolts go through to secure the block edge on hammer the aluminiuum edge on and the bolts lose torque almost immediately (I am guessing). I am re welding the broken mount and replacing all mounting bolts and installing washers per the attached sketch. Make sure your 912 install has washers! I found that AN6 washers fit perfectly on the 10mm metric bolts making a perfect surface between the tubing and the block. All four rear bolts and the bottom front bolts need washers.

I have attached a sketch because it is so hard to explain what I found.

ChrisB

Boone, NC. The aircraft is in Wyoming. It seems like a solid aircraft, hopefully I will get to drive out there in 2 weeks or so. Any purchasing advice? Any particular things to inspect and look for?

I am sure you will get some good advice on here from the Avid drivers - There are builders and flyers on here that have years of flying the Avids.

I'm a Kitfox type - But I watched Airdale #1 being built in Alaska - Have learned a lot from the Avid guys on here. I have both Avid and Fox manuals.

Ed in MO

Manual says:

Run up @ 4000 RPM

Ignition check - 300 RPM drop max each circuit

120 RPM max difference between A&B circuits

- 4000 RPM just seems unnecessarily high to me, what do you use?

- At 4000 RPM I see a bit more than 300 RPM drop on each ignition, how about you?

- My Rotax tach appears to be way off, what RPM difference do you see on your Rotax tach vs. TinyTach?

I'll let you know.....in about 2 months. Still running into things I need to correct before I can fly my new (to me) Flat Avid.

ChrisB

So, how much is my $20 park brake selling for now?" Can these be rebuilt?

Ed

Look on the sand rail sites. You can get line locks for 20 bucks still. I have had one in my sand rail for YEARS and never had it fail.

If it has the stretch by Airdale, then you are getting a better plane. The Soob is a good. long-lasting, low maintenance engine, IMO. Airdale is almost imposible to talk to, but lots of Avid owners on here to help. Most are Rotax drivers, but a few Soobs too. Other than length of wings and landing gear, condition is most important thing to look for - and past history.

ED in MO

P.S. Welcome to the crowd - Lots of good conversations and info here. where are you located?

Boone, NC. The aircraft is in Wyoming. It seems like a solid aircraft, hopefully I will get to drive out there in 2 weeks or so. Any purchasing advice? Any particular things to inspect and look for?

Hi all, not sure if I am posting this correctly, just joined the forum. I am looking to purchase my first Avid/Kitfox and have found one on barnstormers that I really like.

http://barnstormers.com/listing.php?id=711723

It really seems like a solid aircraft and I've been talking to the owner getting information. Apparently useful load is only 407 or 470, don't remember which one but I'm assuming from the Subaru EA81 Stratus engine being heavier then the Rotax.

Is anyone familiar with this particular aircraft or with the builder/owner? It seems to be highly modified by Airdale and I have attempted to contact Airdale multiple times with no success.

Overall seems to be very clean and solid. Let me know what you guys think, I may be putting a deposit on it until I can go take a look at it and get a feel for it.

If it has the stretch by Airdale, then you are getting a better plane. The Soob is a good. long-lasting, low maintenance engine, IMO. Airdale is almost imposible to talk to, but lots of Avid owners on here to help. Most are Rotax drivers, but a few Soobs too. Other than length of wings and landing gear, condition is most important thing to look for - and past history.

ED in MO

P.S. Welcome to the crowd - Lots of good conversations and info here. where are you located?

Well, you're not gonna like this... Matco had across-the-board price increases 3/1/13 for just about everything on their website. I priced everything I needed to do my brake job but held off on placing the order until I could get a good look under my seat pan over the weekend. I about shat my pants when I went to order on Monday and saw the price increases. I had spoke to George prior so he honored the old prices, phew!

So, how much is my $20 park brake selling for now?" Can these be rebuilt?

Ed

Hi all, not sure if I am posting this correctly, just joined the forum. I am looking to purchase my first Avid/Kitfox and have found one on barnstormers that I really like.

http://barnstormers.com/listing.php?id=711723

It really seems like a solid aircraft and I've been talking to the owner getting information. Apparently useful load is only 407 or 470, don't remember which one but I'm assuming from the Subaru EA81 Stratus engine being heavier then the Rotax.

Is anyone familiar with this particular aircraft or with the builder/owner? It seems to be highly modified by Airdale and I have attempted to contact Airdale multiple times with no success.

Overall seems to be very clean and solid. Let me know what you guys think, I may be putting a deposit on it until I can go take a look at it and get a feel for it.

Well, you're not gonna like this... Matco had across-the-board price increases 3/1/13 for just about everything on their website. I priced everything I needed to do my brake job but held off on placing the order until I could get a good look under my seat pan over the weekend. I about shat my pants when I went to order on Monday and saw the price increases. I had spoke to George prior so he honored the old prices, phew!

Ed, I just bought one of the Matco parking valves. Got a couple install ideas, will post pics when done.

Thanks Doug,

I've got an old one - not Matco - 90 degree - If it dont test out, then will be looking at Matco or something.

Ed in Mo

Manual says:

Run up @ 4000 RPM

Ignition check - 300 RPM drop max each circuit

120 RPM max difference between A&B circuits

- 4000 RPM just seems unnecessarily high to me, what do you use?

- At 4000 RPM I see a bit more than 300 RPM drop on each ignition, how about you?

- My Rotax tach appears to be way off, what RPM difference do you see on your Rotax tach vs. TinyTach?

Nice going Joey,What kind of cruise speed do you have now and what are your climbout RPMs.Im assuming you didn't pickup 15 MPH over your old prop but is it going to make your Idaho trip a little more forgiving?Randy

I put an hour on the prop today and all I can say is WOW!! For starters a vibration I have had since the first time I flew this airplane is GONE. The Ivo is WAY smoother than the Warp. I saw climb rates I have never seen with my airplane today that were pushing 1500fpm. After putting in the pitch in straight and level I picked up 15mph. You can feel it accelerate when bumping in the pitch. I am VERY happy with this set up!!

Great News Joey!

I am not at all surprised at your "WOW" about climb performance, but the increased top speed is amazing too! I did not see that much of an increase in top speed myself, but that is probably because the fixed pitch I had before the IFA was more of a cruise prop.

I found the IVO to be the smoothest prop I ever ran.

Now, don't forget to go the extra mile and set up your limits. IMHO they will help keep you out of trouble if the motor should ever fail!

Also keep an eye on the EGT's! You will be using the mixture control more. Also don't forget to check the telltale tape and re torque frequently till it sets in.

Awesome!

ChrisB

Looking for a prop for my avid mk4. 582 c box 3-1

7759109289

Thanks

Roy

Joey, glad it's working out for you! Just wondering what your EGTs are doing, and how you are manageing them. When you were getting the 1500 FPM climb rate, what RPM were you turning? Thanks, Jim Chuk

I put an hour on the prop today and all I can say is WOW!! For starters a vibration I have had since the first time I flew this airplane is GONE. The Ivo is WAY smoother than the Warp. I saw climb rates I have never seen with my airplane today that were pushing 1500fpm. After putting in the pitch in straight and level I picked up 15mph. You can feel it accelerate when bumping in the pitch. I am VERY happy with this set up!!

I put an hour on the prop today and all I can say is WOW!! For starters a vibration I have had since the first time I flew this airplane is GONE. The Ivo is WAY smoother than the Warp. I saw climb rates I have never seen with my airplane today that were pushing 1500fpm. After putting in the pitch in straight and level I picked up 15mph. You can feel it accelerate when bumping in the pitch. I am VERY happy with this set up!!

I didn't think there was such a thing as AD's that applied to experimentals, or at least to E-AB's. They are only advisory and not directives.

That was my opinion too - Only Service Bulletins (SB), but some were manditory?

One nice thing about scratch-built - NO AD's or SB's - You screw up on your own!

ED in MO

Ed, I just bought one of the Matco parking valves. Got a couple install ideas, will post pics when done.