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The very first ride I ever had in and Avid was built a bit different. It had the long wings, but with the speedwing (flat bottom) ribs. That plane flew great, and the owner flew it to Oshkosh quite a few times with other Avids. He said it would cruise way faster than the others at the same RPM. About 15 MPH at the same RPM. He also had cleaned up the plane dragwise where ever he could as well. I was new to these planes then, but it seemed to get out very well at take off. Dough, I have to agree with you about good deals come by rarely. I've seen several and was tempted, but you have to act fast or they go to someone else. If I ever get busy and finish my Kitfox 4 with the 912 on it then I will have one. Other wise, how many airplanes should one man have.... 3 Avids, 2 Kitfoxes at the moment, only one flying. Glad I've got a good-make that WONDERFUL wife. Well I came in to check for any TFRs couse I'm off to get some skiflying time in with a friend and now spent a bunch of time here. Take Care, Jim Chuk

PS well we shot a bunch of landings on a lake, 2.2 hrs. He recently got his Private ticket in a C. 172 He used to fly a lot with me in my other Avid before he started taking lessons in the Cessna. He's got to learn to fly the Avid all over again . I keep taping the ball, he forgot how to use his feet with the Cessna. We're working on getting him his tailwheel endorsement. He'll get there!

Yes I flew a buddies MkIV with the extended "speed wings" and mine side by side multiple times in the course of a few days. I could get his in and out just as short, climb just as well and stall within a couple MPH of my C HH. The only real difference was his had a quicker roll rate and just felt a little more "sporty" Maybe that was due to him having 8.50s and I had heavy goodyear 24s on mine. What ever the reason, it was enough to make me want to build a set of speed wings to HH specs and extend them to the KF wing length... It may just be easier to get a set of kitfox IV -1200 wings and build them.. but what fun would it be to build from a kit when I can scrounge and build on my own :lol:/>/>

:BC:/>/>

Yes I flew a buddies MkIV with the extended "speed wings" and mine side by side multiple times in the course of a few days. I could get his in and out just as short, climb just as well and stall within a couple MPH of my C HH. The only real difference was his had a quicker roll rate and just felt a little more "sporty" Maybe that was due to him having 8.50s and I had heavy goodyear 24s on mine. What ever the reason, it was enough to make me want to build a set of speed wings to HH specs and extend them to the KF wing length... It may just be easier to get a set of kitfox IV -1200 wings and build them.. but what fun would it be to build from a kit when I can scrounge and build on my own

The thing I am stuck on is the lack of these aircraft for sale. Wish I had some more variety to look at.

Either way I am going to look at and fly the 582 Kitfox IV in VA next Monday.

I may also be stopping in Raleigh NC to look at an almost completed Avid Mark IV with a 582.

We will see how that goes and how I enjoy flying the one in VA

If I were to buy the yellow/white Avid in Wyoming, what could I sell the EA81 for, maybe as a FWF package and install a Rotax 912 or 914UL. I've been told atleast $25,000 to do the Rotax conversion which is definitely out of my budget at this moment but might be food for thought in the future.

From my quick calculations it would increase useful load from around 70-100lbs which would make a substancial increase in performance solo and dual with no decrease in HP and the fuel burn should remain around the same.

I'm also curious what can be done to increase cruise speed. The owner has told me I could turn out some higher RPM's with a prop adjustment and might be able to get to a 90mph cruise but I would take up alot more runway and turn higher RPM's which would in turn reduce engine life. Would Vortex Generators and Gap Seals help in any significant way? Would it be possible to mount the radiatior anywhere else? I've heard of the cowl being modified to mount the radiator up front and reduce alot of drag.

Thoughts, experience?

$25k? Umm, maybe if you purchase a brand new 912ul with every Rotax accessory available, do zero part scavenging or reuse and pay someone top dollar to do all the work. Heck, for $25k you can buy a flying Avid or Kitfox with a 912ul FWF...

Seems like you have talked yourself into purchasing the white/yellow Avid because of the Airdale mods or because you feel it may be closest to turnkey with no work involved or whatever reason. Fine, fly it as is and save your funds then buy a new or used 912ul to swap out the Sube. Just understand, while the Sube might be a perfectly good choice in a stretched Avid or Avid+, the reality is that the weight generally precludes it's use in a non-stretched Avid or Kitfox so they simply don't bring much at resale to our crowd. And while you do gain certain benefits, having the powerplant offering the best STOL performance and useable payload for the (stretched or not) Avid or Kitfox airframe are not one of them.

My personal opinion is that all the Airdale mods to that Avid Mk-IV can not compensate for the engine and airfoil limitations. The airfoil and mixer improvements on the KF4 and higher are that good. As mentioned, the Avid wing will hit an aerodynamic wall at ~100mph while the Riblett airfoil on the KF4+ will give you 20mph more. No amount of speed fairings, gap seals and VGs will get you over the wall in the Avid.** The 912ul has repeatedly been called the best overall engine for a KF4. The same could be said for the Avid Mm-IV I suspect, but not many flying examples due to the absence of factory FWF support. The Kitfox resale prices reflect all of that, plus -much- better parts availability and factory support.

Just be advised, if you want a flying KF4 w/912ul you MUST be prepared to pounce immediately and give up any thoughts of finding a bargain through the classifieds. If it is flying and a top example of work and craftsmanship, it might as well be the Holy Grail. They don't come around often and when they do, it's not unusual for a good one to sell in only a day or two at full asking price. Including prices that are guaranteed to raise more than a few eyebrows. Best deals are always found word of mouth in the off season and will require varying degrees of time and expense to return to airworthy. For some reason, there are not as many Avid or Kitfox aircraft advertised east of the Mississippi as there are out west.

If a 912ul powered Avid or Kitfox is your goal, perhaps the quickest path to ownership and lowest out of pocket cost would be to buy a KF4-1200 w/582. They are (in many's opinion) underpowered for the empty weight and therefore not terribly desirable, so they typically do not attract the 'buy now, ask questions later' shopper with more money than brains and normally sell relatively cheap), find a used 912ul to swap FWF and sell off the 582. Much bigger market for a 582 vs. Sube and you'll likely get as much or more $ on resale for the Rotax 2-stroke. FWIW, I sold the 69hr 582 Blue Head with a few accessories off my wrecked KF3 for $4,750 (and that was a good enough deal for the buyer to come from 3 states away).

Keep the faith and have patience. I looked actively for 4 years before finding my KF4-1200 w/912ul 170hrs. It's a solid, quality build by an A&P, but seats need replaced and the fabric work and paint is probably only a 7 or 8 out of 10. It was an estate sale that sat for a few years and, after pointing out numerous issues to the seller and documented costs to repair, I paid $17,250 delivered to my door, down from the $22,500 asking price. I put ~$1000 and a winter's worth of sweat equity into it before I felt it was ready for a return to service. Could easily add another $2k had I replaced the wing tanks, but I'm holding off as the availability of ethanol free premium auto gas locally has gotten much better and a little Decalin goes a long ways. Admittedly, a very good deal, but more proof good things often come to those who wait. Good luck.

** [edit: with the under cambered HH or STOL airfoil, the 912ul powered Mk-IV Speedwing Jim looked at would probably hit VNE without the wing extensions. Leni said he flew a flat bottom wing with extensions and it performed quite similar to his long HH wing Avid C. If I was set on a 912ul powered Avid Mk-IV or KF4, I would take a hard look and test the price waters on that Speedwing with extensions. Even if you find a lot of twist with the wing extentions installed, build or buy a set of HH wings. Might be able to have three different wing configurations and better utility for less than the cost of a KF4 w/912ul.]

Again everyone, thanks for the help and suggestions, even if it has made the decision more difficult. I appreciate the input!

Just jumping back to the empty weight. I really doubt the stated empty weight with the subaru and all the mods is as low as they are saying. My stock engine Ea81 mark IV heavy hauler comes in well over 700 plus weight on the back for cg depending if it's on wheels or floats. With just me and full fuel it needs 500 feet to think about getting of the ground. (2200 msl) Best climb is 800 fpm. Likes to cruise at 70 with engine turning 4000. (1.84:1 reduction.) Still playing with prop pitch for the best tradeoff. The beauty of the sube is cheap reliability. I'm not sure if the airdale stretch eliminates the added weight needed for cg with the sube. Either way check that empty weight.

The owner just emailed me the weight and balance that was just completed on the Avid after the Airdale repair and mods.

Empty weight with the EA81 is 743lbs. Heavier then before and the 16" extension eliminates the need for counterweights.

I was also told takeoffs are around 500 feet solo w/ full fuel and 700 feet dual with as much fuel as possible. Those numbers sound more realistic.

Cruise is 80mph indicated according to the owner.

Enough technical BS... Yup it works..Shot this today after I got bored as hell flying straight and level. I updated my log book today after a few flights and I also broke 1000 logged landings today!! :angeldevil:/>

thousand landings huh. All I can say is wow!Dependable braking probably played some part in at least a few of them .So how quiet is that ivo in comparison to the warp?to me the first time I heard an ivo I was standing outside of the plane, andwhen he opened it up it sounded like a weed whipper on steriods.

I just went and took another look at the Avid with the 912. That is actually a speedwing, the add says he has the wing extentions, and when I read that, I looked a bit closer on the pictures. Wings have a flat bottom. Not that good for STOL operations with the short wingspan. Wing extentions help though. Not sure if they will equal a standard STOL or Heavy Hauler wing for STOL performance though. If the washout isn't to much with the extentions on, that would help cruise speeds though compared to the undercambered wing. If you really want to get somewhere, the short wings would be the ticket. Just my 2 cents worth. YMMV Take care, Jim Chuk

Roy,

I think you are being confused on the engine rpm and prop adjustments - A higher cruise would mean more pitch on the prop and a LOWER static rpm for the engine - Yes, more runway needed. I dont think you are going to see a significant increase in cruise anyway - these planes, except for the later Kitfoxes, have about a 100 mph wall because of the wing rib shape. There was a guy who put VGs UNDER the leading edge and claimed a 10 mph increase in cruise, but we cant verify that. If you arent going long distances, 5 or 10 mph wont make much difference anyway. Probably more important, is short takeoffs?

Presuming that this plane has a 3-blade Warp Drive prop, you could replace the blades with Whirlwind blades for about $900 and maybe gain some cruise. Suberavid just did a test with his Soob with these blades. He liked them.

OR, you could go with the Ivo in-flight-adjustable prop and probably get a little more cruise and still have short takeoffs, unless you are sport pilot or flying without medical and have to stay with ground-adjustable prop.

Thats my 2 cents worth.

Ed in MO

Just jumping back to the empty weight. I really doubt the stated empty weight with the subaru and all the mods is as low as they are saying. My stock engine Ea81 mark IV heavy hauler comes in well over 700 plus weight on the back for cg depending if it's on wheels or floats. With just me and full fuel it needs 500 feet to think about getting of the ground. (2200 msl) Best climb is 800 fpm. Likes to cruise at 70 with engine turning 4000. (1.84:1 reduction.) Still playing with prop pitch for the best tradeoff. The beauty of the sube is cheap reliability. I'm not sure if the airdale stretch eliminates the added weight needed for cg with the sube. Either way check that empty weight.

Roy,

I think you are being confused on the engine rpm and prop adjustments - A higher cruise would mean more pitch on the prop and a LOWER static rpm for the engine - Yes, more runway needed. I dont think you are going to see a significant increase in cruise anyway - these planes, except for the later Kitfoxes, have about a 100 mph wall because of the wing rib shape. There was a guy who put VGs UNDER the leading edge and claimed a 10 mph increase in cruise, but we cant verify that. If you arent going long distances, 5 or 10 mph wont make much difference anyway. Probably more important, is short takeoffs?

Presuming that this plane has a 3-blade Warp Drive prop, you could replace the blades with Whirlwind blades for about $900 and maybe gain some cruise. Suberavid just did a test with his Soob with these blades. He liked them.

OR, you could go with the Ivo in-flight-adjustable prop and probably get a little more cruise and still have short takeoffs, unless you are sport pilot or flying without medical and have to stay with ground-adjustable prop.

Thats my 2 cents worth.

Ed in MO

Private Pilot helicopter and fixed-wing and sorry guys the name is Richard, thought I posted that. The in-flight adjustable prop is alot more like what I am used to with the constant-speeds and even the helicopters.

My uncle says no to this airplane, he has alot of time and experience and he bases that opinion based on the damage history, but if the aircraft has been rebuilt by Airdale I can't imaging the manufacturer wouldnt repair it properly.

Spectacular take-your-breath-away beautiful country. Thanks for reminding us.

Sweet pics Randy! Last time I did that trip it was riding shotgun in a turbine otter at 3500# over gross with the winds from the north at 100-120... yeah, not a fun trip at all!

If I were to buy the yellow/white Avid in Wyoming,

I'm also curious what can be done to increase cruise speed. The owner has told me I could turn out some higher RPM's with a prop adjustment and might be able to get to a 90mph cruise but I would take up alot more runway and turn higher RPM's which would in turn reduce engine life. Would Vortex Generators and Gap Seals help in any significant way?

Thoughts, experience?

Roy,

I think you are being confused on the engine rpm and prop adjustments - A higher cruise would mean more pitch on the prop and a LOWER static rpm for the engine - Yes, more runway needed. I dont think you are going to see a significant increase in cruise anyway - these planes, except for the later Kitfoxes, have about a 100 mph wall because of the wing rib shape. There was a guy who put VGs UNDER the leading edge and claimed a 10 mph increase in cruise, but we cant verify that. If you arent going long distances, 5 or 10 mph wont make much difference anyway. Probably more important, is short takeoffs?

Presuming that this plane has a 3-blade Warp Drive prop, you could replace the blades with Whirlwind blades for about $900 and maybe gain some cruise. Suberavid just did a test with his Soob with these blades. He liked them.

OR, you could go with the Ivo in-flight-adjustable prop and probably get a little more cruise and still have short takeoffs, unless you are sport pilot or flying without medical and have to stay with ground-adjustable prop.

Thats my 2 cents worth.

Ed in MO

RMendler (?) Helps to have a first name at least to refer to you by, just went and did a search on Barnstormers for Kitfoxes, and did see someone had an E81 engine from a kitfox for $2000. Didn't read the add to get the specifics, but that might help to answer your question about what you could sell one for. Take care, Jim Chuk

If I were to buy the yellow/white Avid in Wyoming, what could I sell the EA81 for, maybe as a FWF package and install a Rotax 912 or 914UL. I've been told atleast $25,000 to do the Rotax conversion which is definitely out of my budget at this moment but might be food for thought in the future.

From my quick calculations it would increase useful load from around 70-100lbs which would make a substancial increase in performance solo and dual with no decrease in HP and the fuel burn should remain around the same.

I'm also curious what can be done to increase cruise speed. The owner has told me I could turn out some higher RPM's with a prop adjustment and might be able to get to a 90mph cruise but I would take up alot more runway and turn higher RPM's which would in turn reduce engine life. Would Vortex Generators and Gap Seals help in any significant way? Would it be possible to mount the radiatior anywhere else? I've heard of the cowl being modified to mount the radiator up front and reduce alot of drag.

Thoughts, experience?

The Stratus EA-81 sells new for about $9K - I've seen them sell used for as little as $2500 With a Warp Drive prop. To convert to a 912 would be worse than buying one with no engine, IMO.

The Stratus used to come with cheek radiators - dont know about now.

I dont see an increase of 70 to 100 lbs by going with the 912 - maybe 40 lbs?

either of them are good 4-stroke engines - the Soob is far cheaper to fix or replace.

ED in MO

Nice pics, thanks for posting them. Quite the country! Jim Chuk

A buddy and I had a great trip last week following the Iditarod to Nikolai and McGrath then back home. It was a fun trip through some country I had not been through. We experienced everything from beautiful sunshine to socked in clouds, snow, wind and an unplanned three day stop at Puntilla Lake/Rainy Pass Lodge for weather and parts. It was a fun and learning experience. Attached are a picture chronical of the trip. Left on Tuesday at noon and squeeked back into Wolf Lake on the ice with lights on at 7:30 Sat night.

A buddy and I had a great trip last week following the Iditarod to Nikolai and McGrath then back home. It was a fun trip through some country I had not been through. We experienced everything from beautiful sunshine to socked in clouds, snow, wind and an unplanned three day stop at Puntilla Lake/Rainy Pass Lodge for weather and parts. It was a fun and learning experience. Attached are a picture chronical of the trip. Left on Tuesday at noon and squeeked back into Wolf Lake on the ice with lights on at 7:30 Sat night.

Looks an awful lot like a Highlander Killer stuff Larry... Glad to see there are some innovative guys out there. These things didn't get to where they are by people accepting what worked before them that's for sure!!

X3... A 582 powered Kitfox that sold for 20K would shock me. 5 years ago maybe but not in today's market. I'm thinking that guys wife told him to sell it so he put a stupid price on it so he could keep it and tell her no one wanted it.

How about this one as an option? Needs a little TLC, but all the right parts are there...

Kitfox IV - $18k - 912UL

Gotta be honest, I'm an automotive technician with very little experience working on aircraft. Not sure I feel comfortable finishing out an aircraft. Not that I can't, just not sure I would trust myself

Enough technical BS... Yup it works..Shot this today after I got bored as hell flying straight and level. I updated my log book today after a few flights and I also broke 1000 logged landings today!!

How about this one as an option? Needs a little TLC, but all the right parts are there...

Kitfox IV - $18k - 912UL

Did some more testing today. It's amazing how much changing the pitch effects these engines. I'm still searching for a spot on the cruise where I feel I'm not running the engine too hard. Just because it's not turning up a bunch of RPM doesn't mean it's not working hard. According to Ivo your supposed to pitch it until you can just barely climb. That puts a huge load on the motor with an Avid. I pitched it today for 6400 rpm in WOT level flight and I was still able to climb at 500ft/min.

I have the takeoff setting shacked. Run it till the voltmeter bogs and then go the other way for a blip and I hit 6700 on the initial power push. As soon as I break ground blip it twice more to settle in at 6400 and a killer climb rate. Level off and hold her wide open and keep adding pitch till it settles into around 6500. One thing I found when doing this at first was I wasn't keeping it wide open long enough and allowing the speed to keep building. As the speed builds so does the RPM. Leni the first few times I was like 6500 max level RPM sucks in cruise but the longer I held it the more and more pitch I put in until I was pushing 100 mph. Once it finally stopped I backed it the throttle off to 5800 leaned it a little and was seeing about a 5-10 mph increase in cruise. Not as significant as I originally thought after doing some 5-10 minute cruise periods. Still any improvement is better than none. Of course today my fuel flow gauge decided to throw a fit which it does every so often and read zero or less than a gallon per hour so I didn't get any good fuel burn info.

My question for Herman, Chris, Bryce, and Leni....When I go over the Sierras I have to climb from Sea Level to 9500ft. If I leave from my buddies place you have to do this in about 35 miles. Before when I could pull 6200 on takeoff I would leave my power at about 6000 for the first 45 minutes or so getting a dismal climb rate when heavy. I dont' like the idea of running at 6400 rpm continuously for a long time to get the really good climb rates I been seeing after takeoff.

Think it's better to pitch for 6400 and pull the throttle back or pitch a little courser, pick up some speed and load it up more to bring the RPM down? Water temp cooling is never an issue with my plane. Making metal and the fan stopping is an issue with EVERY plane!

I feel like the modifications to the Avid in Wyoming greatly help

The one in Reno looks nice, so you think the 80hp 912 will outfly the 100hp EA81 with the nicer prop?

I mostly intend to do off-airport landings in improved and unimproved fields throughout NC and VA so I like the idea of the bush gear. The citabria does take a beating though and seems to handle it okay and looks very similar to the Avid in Reno

yeah, that looks like a bit more than my little 2110 bored and stroked VW :lol:/> ... but even with what I have, I put a brand new 97 chevy with a 350 vortec to shame on a paved road... he would have never thought I could take him, but by the time I shifted from 3rd to 4th gear he was just a dot in the rear view and I was over 100 MPH. Its fun to play with in the mud and sand. Many times I put big jacked up 4X4s to shame with mine dancing across the top of the mud. I will have to dig out the old video tapes and comvert them to digital and post up some vids one of these days.

:BC:/>

All in the weight:horsepower ratio - our "high performance" little birds can outdrag a 747 - for a short distance.

Ed in MO