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Please, please, please!  Do not waste your money on an VW motor in your plane!!!

 

Avids and Kitfoxes have been around 30 years.  VW conversions longer.  If there was a way to make them work in these plane there would be a bunch of them flying.  There isn't.  They are nearly unheard of.  I've known a few who have tried and one currently struggling with a AeroVee in a Just Escapade with nothing but heartache for his trouble.

 

VWs need a short high rpm prop and lots of cooling air through the cowl.  This scenario doesn't work in a slow, STOL airplane.  A little go-fast hotrod like a KR2 or Quickie or Sonex is a different story.

 

 

Tinkering on the 670s was the constant changing of plugs, carb adjusting, seized RAV valves, chasing the peaky unpredictable power, and on and on.

Oh - just a thought:  On my trip to NC this past spring, during a sustained climb all the way to 10,500 MSL, I did see an oil temp spike to 260 degrees.

Paul, refresh my memory, is your plane an Avid or Kitfox?  The Avids have a tighter cowl with less air going through, so a cooler is usually needed.

 

I am not running an oil cooler on my Kitfox IV, 912 80 hp.  I will occasionally see oil temps in the 240 range, but since I run Mobil 1 - Racing 4T, my oil redline is 280 degrees.  I have 400 plus hours on my motor currently.  I bought the plane with 70 on the hobbs.  The oil temps have never trended differently for me.  

 

At 235 you are still well within the green, so not to worry.  Just monitor it for higher.

I still have them connected to the cross tube but now working on changing the pedals and building the brackets to place them on the floors.  The Grove sound like a good way to go.  thanks

Paul:

The avids and the kitfoxes are quite different in the brake rudderbar setup that each use.Typically the kitfox has the top of the brake pedal tipped very far forward ahead of the rudder pedal portion.rudder bars are also usually a lot  taller (depending on the model)by contrast to the avids which are  very short and everything cramped up.  http://www.avidfoxflyers.com/index.php?/topic/530-go-kart-to-matco-brakes/ This was the best answer I could come up with in terms of giving the avid a decent working and powerfull  brake setup. Joey has done over 1000 take off and landings with his plane.

  Mike

Any updates?  I'm very interested in this.

All the information I posted is from the guy who sells the UL670, so bear that in mind.

 

I've been considering different engine options as well.  The 582 just doesn't seem to be the best choice for me.

 

I have looked into alot of conversions, the price is the largest factor to me and right now all engine conversions are off the table so I am trying to work with the 582.

 

One interesting engine I have looked at is the new AeroVee 2.1 VW engine.  It's at a great price point if you know how to assemble an engine, has a unique carb design that works very well and produces 80HP and more impressively 127ft-lbs of torque at cruise and it weighs 151lbs installed.  The TBO is 1,000 hours and the average overhaul is $200-$500, worst case scenario, replacing all the internals and cylinders being $2,000

 

The biggest issue lies in the propeller choices, they are limited.  Although I hear that IVO may soon have a kit to convert a 582 propeller to this VW engine with the use of an adaptor.  This will include the IVO IFA Ultralight and Medium props

 

I have also heard that AeroConversions produces a FWF kit to adapt this into a Kitfox IV if you ask them.  Not sure if this is true or not but there is one on YouTube supposedly.

 

I have a brand new Corvette LS-1 motor with an Eagle 383 Stroker Kit, Dart 225cc Heads and a complete Comp Valve train with Holley ECU.  If only I could make it fit into my kitfox

I took the fuel pressure regulator off and installed a piece of 1/4 fuel hose.  I started the engine and then turned on the fuel pump without the regulator.  I got an immediate change in noise from the engine and a drop in RPM and an increase of about .8 GPH fuel burn.  No apparent change in EGT's or CHT's.

 

I then re-intalled the new FPR and did the same test, no change in noise or drop in RPM, a slight increase in fuel burn of .1-.2 GPH and the engine ran smoother.

 

I think the pump is moving too much fuel, but I cannot get in to read the part numbers off the pump, it is encapsolated in a custom aluminum heat shield on the firewall

you can fix that heavy wing by turning in the heim joint on the end of the left strut.  In order to get my stick in a comfortable position, I had to shorten it up on the front and rear (turn the rod ends in, not shorten the tube)

 

No clue on the 912 stuff

 

What was the constant tinkering they were having to do? Thanks, Bryce

Put 3.1 hours on the clock yesterday.  There are a few rigging changes to be made before the next flight.  The left wing is a little heavy so I am going to re-check the rigging of the wings and the flaperons then make the changes to get the thing flying level.  The rudder requires right input even at cruise and the springs on the rudder pedals should be adjusted enough to take care of that but if not then a rudder tab will be added.

 

The last item is the stick is a little far forward to be comfortable while in level flight.  I have checked the manual but did not find anything about adjusting the stick position.  I am assuming that by adjusting the rod end at control column I will be able to move the stick back so that it is comfortable.  Does that sound correct, it may be clear to understand when I get back out to the plane.

 

A question for you 912 flyers:  My oil temp were running at 235 F yesterday with 60 F weather, do these tend to run this high with the new engine and come down as it breaks in or is there an oil cooler in my near future.

 

All in all a fun little plane but it seems to take forever to get anywhere compared to my Q-2 which cruises at 150kts.

It seems that two were built.

 

One crashed somewhere in Canada trying to take-off with its spoiler/air brakes deployed. It seems that it was looted by locals on the site of the crash...

 

The other one had a much longer life in France and flew for around 10 years all over the world for a French TV program called "In the Nature" by the company called Canal+. It was then sold to someone and crashed on a ferry flight to a new airport. Engine failure and hitting a power line were mentioned. The wreck has been moved to the "Seaplane Museum" of Biscarosse in southwestern France where, supposedly it will be rebuilt...

 

In both cases, there were no fatalities.

 

There is a memo about the restoration of the wreck available somewhere on the net for money : http://www.academon.fr/rapport-de-stage/la-renovation-de-l-hydravion-explorer-ii-4234/ But in French and a bit expensive, I'd say...

Is that plane still flying or wasn't it destroyed in some incident?

The lat one was a year or a little more ago.

I believe all three would agree that when the ran well they were amazingly powerful, but required constant tinkering. The Reliability of a 582 was just not there.

One of the guys was a very experienced two-stroke guru (he's still our go-to guy on them).

Hello, 

 

Sorry for digging that subject up, but I am trying to find more information on that beautiful plane ! I have found some video on Youtube : 

and from start I started some research on the net...

I found some interesting things using keywords like "explorer" "de chevigny", "dean wilson" and so on but I am still looking for more if more can be found.

 

I am looking whether someone might have PDF copies from articles that were published in US magazines which might be difficult to find where I am right now (Frenchman living in Germany...) :

- Kitplanes Magazine : Octobre 1995 - Explorer   II:   Exploring   the   Limits   (Dean   Wilson's Explorer)

Ditto what Leni said on the use of the electric fuel pump.

You've mentioned you've got a fuel pressure regulator installed. I'm not sure why this is needed in your fuel system unless the boost pump pressure is too high. My boost pump pressure is 3-5 psi if I recall correctly. In any case, the regulator may be playing a role in your fuel flow fluctuations.

Good information, very informative.  My instructor insisted we use the fuel pump to be safe on the first takeoff, I'm thinking this may have been a bad idea and led to the unusally low EGT's if the fuel pressure regulator was not functioning properly.

Personally knowing three people who have tried these motors in Avids, none of them are still flying.  One went back to a 582, the other to a 912 and the last quit flying all together after several engine outs.

 

Wouldn't be my first choice.  Just my opinion.

Do you know when the engines mentioned were purchased and installed?  From what I have been told alot of time has been spent fixing the issues mentiontioned on other forums.  The newest UL670 was released recently and supposedly is a much better engine.  I read a build thread on a weight shift control forum where the new UL670 was used and the WSC would rocket off the ground much better then with a 582.  If I can find the link on google I will post it.

I am using the springs that pull to full throttle.

 

With the locking ring fully loosened, the springs will slowly open the throttles, there is enough resistance in the cables that they don't just snap open.

Hey Larry, are you using the cable with or without the full throttle default springs on the Bing carbs?

Put your wheel skis on this winter and fly up!  We can make plates for the skis so the wheels dont leave ya stranded in the deep snow packing down a trail with your snowshoes!     Great.. A guy that likes to drink and fight and talks funny... this will be a hoot   You will be pleased to know the owners of the lodge are from Wisconsin and take the packers VERY seriously.  Even the 6 yr old boy is a darn cheese head    We did have fun a few years ago shooting the G out on the outhouse painted up in green bay colors!  More great ideas that come from the Captain

 

I'm of German-Irish decent and grew up in Wisconsin.  Drinking and Green Bay Packer football are the only things we take seriously here.

 

       

 

The pinnacle of my bucket list is to fly up there in a small plane...

Personally knowing three people who have tried these motors in Avids, none of them are still flying.  One went back to a 582, the other to a 912 and the last quit flying all together after several engine outs.

 

Wouldn't be my first choice.  Just my opinion.

I have an electric boost / back up pump on mine.   I will turn on the master, hit the pump till it pressures up, shut it off, give it a few squirts of primer, then hit the key.  I never run the boost pump inflight or on take off.  I dont see any RPM difference with it on or off, and a slight increase from 6.9 GPH on take off to 7.1 with the boost pump on. 

 

A buddy had a MK IV extended speed wing that handled great, but take off and climb pretty much sucked.  I put my old ground adjust IVO ultralight 3 blade on it and it woke it up nicely!  it took it from 152 at gross performance to off the ground in 100-150' and climbing hard.  I loved the way that plane flew!  And that was just a ground adjustable.  The engine ran and idles MUCH smoother also!

 

Well we have mechanically eliminated many issues now.

 

The prop pitch was INCORRECT, but not by much and it has been corrected.  Fuel flow is just fine, checked it today.  I don't think the blades stalled after talking with GSC and testing the prop up to 23 degrees, it pulled HARD but would not go over 4,800RPM WOT.

 

Do any of you 582 guys run the fuel pump on takeoff?  I notice with the fuel pump on, the RPM doesn't really dip but I notice a slight audible change and the fuel burn goes from between 1.2-1.4GPH to 1.6-1.7GPH sitting still.  Should I use the fuel pump on every takeoff?  The takeoff checklist I have does not include the fuel pump being turned on, only for starting and when the wing tanks run out but this is common on other aircraft..

The incident I described on the micro burst was just like that.  Dead calm.. I mean DEAD calm, the sun pouring in through the skylight, damn near about to fall asleep.  I had not hit a bump or had to touch the stick in over an hour.. then it all broke loose with no indication from anything other than the bottom dropped out.  Scared the ever loving crud outta me!!!  there was not a cloud in sight, no dirt blowing off the mountain ridges, NOTHING.

 

un-predictable winds out of nowhere... me thinks we could be narrowing down the issues a bit here.  Not saying its the absolute 100% only thing that could have happened, but.. it is very highly plausible.  Had you come back saying that you lost, or gained a ton of RPM when this event happened it would have us (me) looking else where, however...

 

For the prop stall theory to work, the blades would have had to totaly unload, thus giving you a sudden increase in RPM.  The blades would have loaded back up when you lowered the nose, etc and things would ahve been just peachy then except for your tidy whities (or now un-tidy whities).

 

Fuel flow issue.. the engine would have surged, sputtered, etc..

 

Depature stall senario when / if the AOA got too high.. not even thinking thats what could have happened, HOWEVER, if it did, or if the onset to the stall was recognised and the nose lowered, then as soon as you lowered the AOA your wing was happy again and you would have flown out of it no problem.

 

Accelerated stall.. You would have been in one hell of a bank and the problem would not be a mystery to you..

 

I dont know about yours, but in the avids and kitfoxes I have flown, a stall is NOT a surprise event.  The plane tells you 100 times it does not like where you have put it and you should lower the nose LONG before the actual break that you have to FORCE the plane into a full stall.  also the AOA at full power is so stupid that again, it would not be a mystery to you as to why you were falling out of the sky..

 

I know I am rambling on here, but I am working out possible senarios out loud and not really coming up with a smoking gun other than a possible down draft / micro burst.

 

Anyone else with any bright ideas to monday morning quarter back this event??