Tailwheel

[wypaul 448]

OK, Three flights, two ground loops and finally a good landing today.  I removed the cam for the tailwheel release on the Maule tailwheel that made all the difference.

 

Herman I know you have a lot more experience with these little planes than I do but from my experience with the wheel becoming free swiveling on landing it is hard to imagine that the free swiveling tailwheel will be a good thing, this is of course coming from a newbie to the Avid/Kitfox world.

 

I did get good at repairing the fuselage and found out that some reinforcement is required.  I really like the Bush Gear that I purchased from Mark and Lowell at HighWing llc.  They are great to work with and I can recommend them highly.

[akflyer 1427]

Paul, I have heard some really really mixed reviews on the bush gear.. good landings and they work great, bounce one too hard and they bend the fuse.  I think both guys have quit making the gear now due to the number of planes that have been bent up using the new spring gear.  We are in a really busy time at work, but I have one of the engineers working on the loading and geometry issues to hopefully come up with a fix so guys can quit pulling the side of the fuse in when they bounce it in too hard.

 

[6320012s 12]

Paul,

Although tail wheel castor is a poblem if it comes free at the  wrong time, my conclusion has been that the factory brake pedal geometry causes most ground loops with these birds.  (it did with my first three GL) Do your master cylinders connect to the cross tube or to the floor?  If they are not connected to the floor, a hard rudder input will push the opposite brake into your foot giving brake input that intensifies the ground loop.   Attaching MC to floor reverses the action and drives the brake pedal into the foot that is applying rudder.  This way you get brake assist for rudder inputs.  Although I wouldn't want to press my luck, I'm pretty sure I could now maintain control even if the tail wheel was castoring.  I've seen several members post pictures of this setup that were better executed than mine, so there are a number of good ideas to draw from.  After wiping out my standard gear, I put on grove gear and have never looked back.  (wide stance and puts the load in the right place on the frame)

 

Good luck and be safe.

[Av8r3400 1179]

I couldn't agree more about the Grove gear, David.  I did the same and my project now has a taller (3"), wider (2-1/2") Grove set for it coming.

 

However, I do agree also with the removal of the unlocking cam on a Maul wheel on these planes during training.  (The first 100 hours!)   I know a multi-thousand hour tailwheel CFI that looped a buddies Mk4 Avid twice prior to removal of the cam.  These planes are short and quick, with no where near enough rudder.  Period.

 

The issue with the brake peddles only exacerbates the situation.

[wypaul 448]

Paul, I have heard some really really mixed reviews on the bush gear.. good landings and they work great, bounce one too hard and they bend the fuse.  I think both guys have quit making the gear now due to the number of planes that have been bent up using the new spring gear.  We are in a really busy time at work, but I have one of the engineers working on the loading and geometry issues to hopefully come up with a fix so guys can quit pulling the side of the fuse in when they bounce it in too hard.

 

Sounds good, I will be interested in hearing what you come up with.

[wypaul 448]

Paul,

Although tail wheel castor is a poblem if it comes free at the  wrong time, my conclusion has been that the factory brake pedal geometry causes most ground loops with these birds.  (it did with my first three GL) Do your master cylinders connect to the cross tube or to the floor?  If they are not connected to the floor, a hard rudder input will push the opposite brake into your foot giving brake input that intensifies the ground loop.   Attaching MC to floor reverses the action and drives the brake pedal into the foot that is applying rudder.  This way you get brake assist for rudder inputs.  Although I wouldn't want to press my luck, I'm pretty sure I could now maintain control even if the tail wheel was castoring.  I've seen several members post pictures of this setup that were better executed than mine, so there are a number of good ideas to draw from.  After wiping out my standard gear, I put on grove gear and have never looked back.  (wide stance and puts the load in the right place on the frame)

 

Good luck and be safe.

I still have them connected to the cross tube but now working on changing the pedals and building the brackets to place them on the floors.  The Grove sound like a good way to go.  thanks

[EDMO 1078]

I still have them connected to the cross tube but now working on changing the pedals and building the brackets to place them on the floors.  The Grove sound like a good way to go.  thanks

Paul, I have the Grove gear for 1 thru 4, 1200 GW, with axels and 6" matco wheels and calipers, for sale.

Just in case anyone wants a used set cheaper than new ones.

ED in Mo

Edited 27 May 2013 by Ed In Missouri

[herman pahls 9]

Regarding landing these little Avids and KF's.

I learned to fly in T- craft and Champs 36 years ago and thought I was a real tail dragger pilot.

18 years ago I flew my Model 2 Kitfox for the first time, having flown a Champ the day before and almost lost it.

These airplanes are to be respected since they react quickly to control inputs.

I have never flown a Pitts, but I am sure they would be another step above in control management.

I now land much differently than I did in the past when trying to land as short as possible.

I always wondered why on the extreme backcountry videos why the pilots were doing wheel landings which normally have higher approach speeds.

I have learned that what looks like a wheel landing is really a modified full stall 3 point landing approach, that as soon as the mains touch you get on the brakes and elevator as needed and the tail wheel never touch's till you are stopped.

Using this technique I have found that for the first time in all these years and hundreds of hours that I can land my Kitfox shorter than I can take off.

It does not help that everything I have done to land in short rough strips has added weight but huge amounts of confidence.

I still use the original Model 2 bungee gear with no issues so far and have considered the after market gears for better Angle of Attack.

This thread has cautioned me to reconsider because of the mentioned failures.

I always thought the Grove gear was too heavy to consider so I would like some input from this forum.

Ed; would you please call me regarding your Grove.

Thanks Herman Pahls Oregon cell 541-404-6464

[SuberAvid 617]

Wide bungee gear fan! 

[wypaul 448]

Regarding landing these little Avids and KF's.

I learned to fly in T- craft and Champs 36 years ago and thought I was a real tail dragger pilot.

18 years ago I flew my Model 2 Kitfox for the first time, having flown a Champ the day before and almost lost it.

These airplanes are to be respected since they react quickly to control inputs.

I have never flown a Pitts, but I am sure they would be another step above in control management.

I now land much differently than I did in the past when trying to land as short as possible.

I always wondered why on the extreme backcountry videos why the pilots were doing wheel landings which normally have higher approach speeds.

I have learned that what looks like a wheel landing is really a modified full stall 3 point landing approach, that as soon as the mains touch you get on the brakes and elevator as needed and the tail wheel never touch's till you are stopped.

Using this technique I have found that for the first time in all these years and hundreds of hours that I can land my Kitfox shorter than I can take off.

It does not help that everything I have done to land in short rough strips has added weight but huge amounts of confidence.

I still use the original Model 2 bungee gear with no issues so far and have considered the after market gears for better Angle of Attack.

This thread has cautioned me to reconsider because of the mentioned failures.

I always thought the Grove gear was too heavy to consider so I would like some input from this forum.

Ed; would you please call me regarding your Grove.

Thanks Herman Pahls Oregon cell 541-404-6464

Interesting Herman, I can see where using that technic  that a free swiveling tailwheel could work just fine.  I also have a Q-2 that I fly which is also twitchy on landing but I did not approach the Avid with enough respect with the Maule (Mal) tw braking free.  I don't know how many people have had problems with the "Bush Gear" but I do not blame the gear on the ground loop that I experienced with it.  The major problem beyond the tw, I think, was the weakness of the fuselage in the area of gear attachment area and learned from reading, after the fact that those areas need some re-enforcement especially with the wide style gear.  I guess that's why they call them experimental.  Having fun learning and experimenting.

Edited 31 May 2013 by Paul S

[herman pahls 9]

SuberAvid

You responded with "Wide bungee gear fan" and Leni said the after market bush gears have had failures.

So who makes the gear you suggest?

Thanks Herman

[akflyer 1427]

The wide bungee gear is fine.. the gear that everyone refers to as the "bush gear" is the "cub style" that uses a die spring on the cabane vee.  The spring does not allow for enough travel so you bounce it one good one and it bottoms out, goes metal to metal and it tweeks the fuse sides and bottom stringers...

 

So the Avid "wide gear" and the grove gear are the two main options right now.  The Avid Wide gear is 3 or 4" taller as well as 10 or 11" wider but still use's bungees.  If you go to the wide gear, you need to put the wood or metal triangles in the seat truss openings or you will fold up the seat truss due to having to use heavier bungees and more wrapps because of the increased moment arm on the end of the gear.

 

[saskavid 47]

I still have them connected to the cross tube but now working on changing the pedals and building the brackets to place them on the floors.  The Grove sound like a good way to go.  thanks

Paul:

The avids and the kitfoxes are quite different in the brake rudderbar setup that each use.Typically the kitfox has the top of the brake pedal tipped very far forward ahead of the rudder pedal portion.rudder bars are also usually a lot  taller (depending on the model)by contrast to the avids which are  very short and everything cramped up.  http://www.avidfoxflyers.com/index.php?/topic/530-go-kart-to-matco-brakes/ This was the best answer I could come up with in terms of giving the avid a decent working and powerfull  brake setup. Joey has done over 1000 take off and landings with his plane.

  Mike

[wypaul 448]

Mike I have been looking at your setup and it appears that you have developed a good solution. I have made some adjustments and have the brakes working ok for now. I will be in contact with you about your setup sometime in the future. Right now I would like to get the hours flown off before I start any more mods.

[SuberAvid 617]

SuberAvid

You responded with "Wide bungee gear fan" and Leni said the after market bush gears have had failures.

So who makes the gear you suggest?

 

Herman,

 

Leni did a good job answering your question.  I had the Airdale wide bungee gear on my Avid MKIV (with reinforced seat truss and Leni described) and the extra tall wide gear on my Avid+ that I built.  No problems and no failures, and with some pretty hard landings.  I think Airdale and another company (Highwing or something) makes the wide bungee gear.  I have never flown a plane with Grove gear and it sounds like many are impressed with it; but it is heavy and expensive, and I have seen a KF with it that has fusalage damage at the gear attachment.  No gear is fail proof but the wide bungee gear has worked very well for me.

[CRAZEDpilot 1]

Grove is definately hard to beat on these type of aircraft; I've had Grove on two of my Kitfox and I can flare it in slow at 40-ish

and drop it on those grove with 26" bushwheels and be stopped in 150-200ft every time (alone) with the confidence I"m not going

to bend anything.  It's a lovely feeling.  If anyone is in the market, I'd recommend getting the brake lines drilled into the grove; makes

for a clean install.  There are arguements for both directions (bored/slotted) but I prefer ours drilled.

 

Safe flying all!

~Brendan

[C5Engineer 1170]

Welcome to AFF Brendan!