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  1. akflyer added a post in a topic Primary non comercial.. hell yeah! lets hope this passes   

    I don't see cub prices going down. The guides need them and that will keep the price up there. I can see the price of 172 and planes like that going back up because now people can afford to fly them and won't need a medical if the 3rd class med goes away. In general, it will let the retired guys on fixed incomes get back in the air and not be breaking the bank as bad. Just my take on it.


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  2. EDMO added a post in a topic Primary non comercial.. hell yeah! lets hope this passes   

    I don't think the IAs will be very happy!
    EDMO
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  3. lostman added a post in a topic Primary non comercial.. hell yeah! lets hope this passes   

    If this happens it will be a big boost for some individuals to keep flying!
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  4. Av8r3400 added a post in a topic Kitfox wings for Avid MK IV   

    With all due respect, Doug I base that opinion off first hand observation of three different planes. A 582 short wing, a 582 long wing and a RR 670 extended wing (short wing with inserts).

    The best of the three was the 582 long wing. At 600# empty it would do okay solo, but any more than a light load it was a slug, even at our low altitude. Takeoff, climb and handling was inferior to a HH wing. It would go a little faster, but not as fast as a similar loaded Kitfox IV wing, flown along side my plane. (Yes I understand the power difference)

    The short wing was a fatality looking for a place to happen and was quickly sold. I think it got scrapped.

    The 670 just was never reliable enough to make a showing. When it did run and fly the performance was no different than the 582 long wing. It also was sold and has never flown again to my knowledge. That owner now has a 582 powered Kitfox IV and is happy as a clam.

    These planes were all brought to my home airport for the resident LS-CFI (Steve) to do owner checkouts in.
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  5. dholly added a post in a topic Primary non comercial.. hell yeah! lets hope this passes   

    I can see Cub and T-Crate prices plummeting already...
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  6. dholly added a post in a topic Kitfox wings for Avid MK IV   

     
    Hey Leni and Jim C, Larry just called you guys liars again!
     
    Larry, all bullshit set aside, I would respectfully say you need to temper such all-encompassing blanket condemnations. Many, many variables all come into play... weight, engine, wing twist yada yada, but the way you blast this airfoil you'd think every speedwing was one dry fart short of dropping from the sky. As I understand, the speed wing airfoil performed as Dean envisioned on the early, lightweight Avid models. Problems seem to be most common when folks ask too much of the airfoil. Perhaps Joey or another of Deans friends here could get the scoop straight from the Boss next time they see him?
     
    I would only add that over the years I've spoken to or read comments from folks who used speed ribs on long spars and by and large give good reviews. I know some have a bucketload more brains than I ever will, and I certainly don't consider them all liars. Here were a couple comments off the yahoo list I saved for the numbers:
     
     
    And from a -double gasp- Sube powered extended speedwing flyer:
     
     
    No comment on the Franklin power, but I would take either of those other planes over no plane! Would I want short speed wings on an over gross B, C or even on a Mk-IV w/ 65hp or less? Hell no. Would I want a speedwing with excessive washout? No. Would I ever want a speedwing with extentions? Maybe. Would I build a long spar with speed ribs to heavy hauler specs and standard or less twist than called for in the manual? Yep, exactly what I did for my Avid+. No regrets.
     
    However, knowing what I do know now, I probably would have un-glued the three ribs that were installed on one wing by the previous owner when I bought the kit. He had set twist at 1-1/2", less than the 2" called for a long spar wing in the manual, but I would have done 1-1/4" and maybe even less. My KF 4-1200 washout is only 1". Either way, with an 80hp 912 I think it'll hit Vne and perform just fine.
     
    As always, YMMV.
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  7. akflyer added a topic in Avidfoxflyers General Hangar   

    Primary non comercial.. hell yeah! lets hope this passes
    Below is a section of the proposed rule making from the FAA work group.

    Here is a link to the whole thing, http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies ... Report.pdf



    3.3.5 Primary Non‐Commercial Category
    Background
    The 14 CFR Part 23 Reorganization ARC was tasked with doubling aircraft safety while reducing certification costs by half. Currently, there are almost 200,000 General Aviation aircraft registered in the United States; however, production of new aircraft averages less than 1 percent of this per year. Consequently, it may be decades before this ARC’s improvements for new aircraft design will yield any measurable safety improvements or cost reductions for the General Aviation Fleet as a whole.
    One way to realize the safety and cost goals is by leveraging the concepts this ARC developed for use in new aircraft certification in a manner that would have an immediately felt positive safety effect on the existing General Aviation fleet.
    ~ 39 ~
    This section will summarize the ARC’s recommendation to implement a Primary Non‐Commercial Category (See Appendix G for complete paper) that is similar to the Canadian Owner Maintenance Category, but with some significant safety enhancements to address some concerns with that program. This recommendation is bold, but reflects the challenge posed to industry at the FAA’s ARC kick‐off meeting. At that meeting, the FAA challenged the ARC members to be bold, creative, and non‐ traditional.
    The Primary Non‐Commercial Category is intended for the private owner to operate their aircraft in a substantially less burdensome and costly manner by reducing the level of FAA maintenance and alteration requirements to a level appropriate for a privately owned vehicle.
    This proposal has two precedents that support the concept. First, this class follows international precedent by leveraging the concepts of the Canadian Owner Maintenance Category, which has a proven safety record over the last decade. For more information on the Canadian system requirements and safety results experience see the complete recommendation in Appendix G. Secondly, this concept uses the maintenance training principles of the highly successful LSA program that has a proven safety record. Incorporation of this new category will offer the FAA a rare opportunity for implementation of sound safety continuum principles paired with international harmonization.
    In addition, by allowing a practical and workable path to return Non‐Commercial aircraft to Standard Category through dual airworthiness certificates, owners will have a large financial incentive to keep their aircraft near type design to avoid devaluing their aircraft. This is a significant safety advantage over the Canadian system where it is nearly impossible to return to Standard Category; therefore, affording no incentive for owners to keep aircraft compliant to safety proven type design.
    Finally, the principles set forth in the “Primary Non‐Commercial Category” proposal exclusively leverage existing US regulations with proven safety records. The recommendation simply takes successful existing regulatory practices and combines them into the new Primary Non Commercial Category. For example, maintenance training and certification comes from LSA, airworthiness certification comes from dual certificated Standard/Restricted Category aircraft and Non‐Commercial use from Experimental Aircraft. There is nothing new or novel proposed, except for the potential for safety and cost improvements that would be available for users of the Primary Non Commercial class.
    3.3.5.1 Primary Non‐Commercial Category Recommendation
    Applicability
    The owner of a fixed wing, non‐ turbine powered part 23 aircraft or part 23 glider, 20 years or older, may elect to redesignate their aircraft as a Primary Non‐Commercial.
    Privileges
    1. Aircraft in this category can be maintained by the owner with a repairperson’s certificate, similar to currently established procedures for LSA aircraft repairpersons.
    ~ 40 ~
    2. Replacement or alteration parts should be appropriate for aircraft use; however, such parts need not be PMA/TSO authorized.
    3. Owners can alter their own aircraft without the requirement for FAA approved data; however, some alterations may require “phase 1” flight testing similar to Experimental Amateur Built (EAB) requirements.
    Limitations
    1. Primary Non‐Commercial Category Aircraft are required to observe the FAA Approved Aircraft Flight Manual Operational Limitations and/or required placard limitations established for the Standard Category.
    2. Aircraft cannot be used to carry persons for hire, this includes aircraft rental, but allows an owner to receive flight instruction in their own aircraft.
    3. Airworthiness Directives are only applicable as currently allowed for EAB.
    4. Aircraft owners must maintain a list in the aircraft logbook of all applicable ADs and their compliance status. This list will be used to highlight the owners’ awareness of the ADs existence and document their choice of compliance. This list will also be used to facilitate the conversion of the aircraft back to normal category.
    5. Aircraft owners must maintain a list in the aircraft logbook of all alterations performed that are not FAA approved and all non PMA/TSO parts installed. This list will be used to facilitate the aircraft conversion back to normal category.
    6. Incomplete or fraudulent maintenance logbook entries result in the revocation of the aircraft’s standard airworthiness certificate.
    Requirements
    1. Before original conversion, the aircraft must have a current annual inspection – all applicable ADs must be complied with at the current annual inspection.
    2. Airplane owners must either add the prefix of “NC” to the aircraft registration number or affix a “Non‐Commercial” placard readily visible to all passengers.
    3. The aircraft must have a yearly condition inspection by an A&P mechanic certifying that the aircraft is “in condition for safe operation.”
    4. Upon transfer of aircraft ownership, the Non‐Commercial Airworthiness Certificate must be reissued in the new owner’s name.
    ~ 41 ~
    Conversion Back to Normal Category
    1. Aircraft operated in the Non‐Commercial type certification class would be dual certificated in both the Normal and Non‐Commercial categories, as is commonplace for Restricted Category aircraft.
    2. Aircraft in the Non‐Commercial TC category can be operated in the Standard Category, provided the aircraft meets it type design data including compliance with all ADs, removal of all Non‐ PMA/TSO parts and replacement with certified units and the removal of all non‐certified alterations.
    3. The conversion can be accomplished by an Inspection Authority (IA) mechanic with a complete and thorough annual inspection and logbook audit. Upon successful completion, the aircraft could be operated under its Standard Airworthiness Certificate. The procedure is very common with Restricted Category aircraft and proven to be safe and successful.
    Regulation and Order Changes
    The following regulations would need to be revised to accommodate the Primary Non‐Commercial Category.
    1. New Regulation § 21.24 establishing the Primary Non‐Commercial Category
    2. Revised Regulation § 21.184 issue of airworthiness certificates for primary category aircraft and primary (non‐commercial) aircraft
    3. New Regulation § 91.328 Operating Limitations for Primary Non‐Commercial Aircraft
    4. Revised Regulation § 45.22 for markings on Primary Non‐Commercial Aircraft
    5. New Regulation § 65.108 establishing Primary Non‐Commercial Repairmen Certificates
    6. Revised FAA Order 8130.2 Airworthiness Inspector’s Handbook
    7. New Order 800‐ANC‐ARC defining required training for Primary Non‐Commercial Repairman Courses and Evaluation
    3.3.5.2 Conclusion
    The intent of the Primary Non‐Commercial Category is to reduce the level of FAA maintenance and alteration requirements to a level more appropriate for a privately operated vehicle while simultaneously improving safety and reducing owner costs.
    This recommendation follows the international precedent of the Canadian Owner maintenance class. Analysis of a decade of Transport Canada data indicates that this class has been fully successful in maintaining (and in some cases enhancing) the safety of the Canadian GA fleet. It is reasonable to conclude that similar US Primary Non‐Commercial Category would have safety results equivalent to the
    ~ 42 ~
    Canadian success. Thus, incorporation of this new category will offer the FAA a rare opportunity for international harmonization by the application of sound safety continuum principles.
    It is important to note that there is absolutely nothing new or novel in this recommendation – the “Primary Non Commercial Category” consists exclusively of regulations and procedures used to certify and operate other categories of aircraft. These “borrowed” regulations are simply recombined in a way that preserves the individual safety checks in a streamlined manner that is substantially less burdensome for a private owner.
    In order for general aviation to remain viable in the United States, it is essential that a way be found to both lower costs and improve safety. The Primary Non‐Commercial Category offers the FAA a chance to accomplish both goals, using existing regulatory language, while decreasing oversight requirements and expenditures.
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  8. Av8r3400 added a post in a topic Kitfox wings for Avid MK IV   

    The Speedwing came "modified" right from Avid.  They were't totally flat, they had a very slight positive camber to them, and they work for shit, long or short span.  As you already know.  Anyone who has flown this wing compared to the under cambered or the Kitfox-Riblett wing will attest to this - if they are honest.
     
    As to your modified, extended Riblett copy, I wish you the best of luck with that.  I hope it works for you.
     
    For his hybrid (heavily modified Avid C Fuselage, Kitfox IV+ wing), my friend built his own lift struts.  He used one adjuster per wing, not the four used by Kitfox or the one used by Avid.  If I were to build my own struts, I would use streamlined tubing, which would negate the need for farings, wood or plastic.  Like what Just uses for their planes.
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  9. RDavidson added a post in a topic Painting fuselage cage   

    Thanks guys...2 part epoxy is what my paint guy suggested too.
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  10. Luked added a post in a topic Kitfox wings for Avid MK IV   

    Yeah, good point about avoiding ethanol. Still it's nice to know your tanks won't desolve if you get some in there. The KF tanks sound like to way to go though.
     
    Ed, I think the current wings just have too much twist to correct very easily. From what I measured, they had a little over 2" of twist, and these are speed wing length. If I extend them, the twist will get worse. I thought about trying to tear them apart to re-use what ever I could, but the more I thought about it, the more I started thinking I probably wouldn't end up salvaging that many usable pieces.
     
    I don't know much about the history of the KF flaperons (I think I might have read that story about KF changing back and forth on the airfoil though), but I have the latest build manual for the SS. It's kind of interesting when you look at the CAD drawings in the manual. They definitely look pretty symetrical. I wouldn't say that they are perfectly symetrical though. If you put a straight edge on the diagram from the leading edge to the trailing edge, the chord line goes below the center of the torque tube by a fair amount. On the other hand, it's sure not a flat bottom like my Avid flaperons either.
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  11. EDMO added a post in a topic Kitfox wings for Avid MK IV   

    Kitfox even offered to sell owners the "new, flat-bottomed flaperons" to replace their symmetrical ones at one time.  This was met with disgust by owners who knew about the earlier design.
    This "Riblett modification" is like the later Kitfox ribs, and not flat-bottomed like the Avid Speedwing.
    So how were these Speedwing ribs that you saw, modified?
    EdMO
    Added:  Kitfox struts wont connect to Avid fuselage fittings - at least I know that the earlier models were not the same.
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  12. Av8r3400 added a post in a topic Kitfox wings for Avid MK IV   

    My friend who built the hybrid used the latest Kitfox flapperon design.  It is in fact the symmetrical one.  This was what Riblett suggested with the IV and later design airfoil.  All of the 4, 5, 6, 7, and SS Kitfoxes I've seen have them too...
     
    I've seen plenty of modified Avid "flat bottom" wing ribs - otherwise known as the Avid Speedwing.  One of the worst flying wings ever.  Point of fact.
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  13. EDMO added a post in a topic Kitfox wings for Avid MK IV   

    I had to laugh a little on the flaperon post - not at anyone here, but at Kitfox:  At some point with the Kitfox Classic 4 or 5, they changed from the flat-bottomed flaperons to a more symmetrical style that Harry Riblett recommended.  Then some model later, probably on the 6 or 7, they advertised a modification kit, "new, more efficient flaperons with the flat bottom"!  Go figure!   Kitfox owners were not impressed!
         You could save some money and use your old flaperons by extending the pivot tube out, but you would still have to modify your attachments to fit the later style Kitfox ribs.
         Cheapest route, but practical, would be to extend your wings, (or not), modify the rib bottoms to match the Kitfox Riblett style, and Keep your flaperons.   This would make up for some of the washout and give more lift and cruise.  I am doing that to my undercambered wings.
    my 2c worth.
    EDMO
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  14. Av8r3400 added a post in a topic Kitfox wings for Avid MK IV   

    It will always be best policy to avoid ethanol at all costs.  
     
    That being said, I believe the new style tanks are the best bet when using auto gas that may or may not be contaminated by ethanol.
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  15. EDMO added a post in a topic Hall Vortex generators   

    Doug,
         I think the airfoiled vertical and rudder would probably perform better - from what I have read, the flat horizontal is just about as efficient at Avid speeds as the airfoiled, and the choice is mainly based on looks???
         Looks like John lowered the horizontal to about where the Kitfox has it?
    EDMO
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  16. lostman added a post in a topic Hall Vortex generators   

    John actually dropped the HS down. His reason was that it would be out of the turbulent air of the flaperons and wings down lower. I'm guessing it's about 6" from what I can tell looking at pictures. The elevator is fairly effective, that's never been any issue to me at all. I'm sure it could be bigger so that it would trim out for slower speeds on final and what not. I run out of trim right at about 75 to 80 MPH depending on how I'm loaded.
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  17. lostman added a topic in For Sale and wanted, you got it, I want it   

    Avid MK V for sale (John Larsen's Pursang)
    Most of you know a lot more about his plane since my wife and I bought this plane almost two months ago. I've spent over 225 hours getting everything in the shape it should have been before I purchased it. Basically the plane is in VERY good shape now, looks good with new interior carpet, panel was repainted, glare shield was redone, exterior was freshened up with new stripes and leading edge paint.
     
    After all this work I was told that it needs to go. So, it's up for sale or trade, if you have something other than an Avid or Kitfox. I'd like to stay experimental so I can do the work to it as well but may consider other offers.
     
    Message me for more details. There are a lot of pictures on the Epic journey of the Pursang thread but here are a couple that I like.
     
    I'm sadly selling this plane since it burns only 3.7GPH and cruises at about 90MPH. Not to mention the huge amount of space it has behind the seats for sleeping, cargo, or whatever else you might want to throw back there. I honestly haven't ever flown another two seat aircraft with as much baggage space and the ability of the plane to haul it fully loaded.
     






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  18. dholly added a post in a topic Hall Vortex generators   

    Makes sense. With a bit wider cabin on the Avid+, now I'm curious too. In any event, I thought John raised the H.S. and elevator on the plane, presumably to keep it in clean air or prevent it from getting blanked? Now I need go look for a pic to see how much higher yours is vs. an Avid Mk-IV. Next time you let the owner fly with you, maybe put some tufts back there and see what it looks like?

    I also wonder what difference, if any, the flat vertical and rudder would make under the circumstances. Some who have flown Avids with flat tail feathers and Kitfoxes with speedster tail mods comment the Avid tail hunts for center more. My KF3 was all flat and my KF4 has the airfoiled H.S. and elevator, but not the airfoiled vertical. I couldn't tell any difference but was thinking of air foiling everything on my Avid+ tail.
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  19. Luked added a post in a topic Kitfox wings for Avid MK IV   

    Thanks for the detailed answers. I forgot to mention the flaperons. I will need those too since the flaperons I have are only 9 feet long. I'll probably get KF parts like you suggest to be the most compatible with the wing.
     
    I wonder what the KF tanks are made of. Must be vinyl ester. I've read that most vinyl-ester resins are ethanol resistence, but like you say not ethanol proof. I've read where some guys say that they have used auto fuel in vinyl-ester tanks for 20 years with no problem though.
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  20. Av8r3400 added a post in a topic Kitfox wings for Avid MK IV   

    Span - You can build what ever you would like.  The Kitfox oem span would be fine.  They work nearly as well one rib-bay short - The Kitfox Speedwing.
     
    Gross Weight - The same wing, .065" wall spar with 60" I-beam inserts holds a recommended 1550 gross on the Kitfox 5, 6, 7.  1200 is just fine.
     
    Wing Tips - My friend built his Hybrid Avid-Fox using the Avid style, fiberglass, fabric covered tips.  They work just fine.
     
    Gas Tanks - The new Kitfox tanks are ethanol resistant, from the same vendor that Brett/Airdale uses.  Ethanol resistant does not mean ethanol proof.  I don't believe any fiberglass is ethanol proof.
     
    Flapperons - Something you didn't mention, I would say you should use Kitfox symmetrical flapperons with the Ribblett-airfoil Kitfox wings.  They work much better with that wing than the flat bottom Avid Flapperons.  Additionally the mounts and hangars for the Kitfox wings may not work with the Avid flapperons.
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  21. Luked added a topic in Avidfoxflyers General Hangar   

    Kitfox wings for Avid MK IV
    I'm planning to build new wings for my MKIV project since I don't want to use the built wings that came with my kit (speed wings with excessive washout). Shortly after I bought my kit, I called Brett at Airdale to see about parts availability. He did call me back, but it took several days to hear back. Being the impatient type that I am sometimes, I thought I'd call Kitfox too.
     
    I got a call right back from John McBean. He was very nice, and said that others have installed KF wings on Avids before. I'm pretty sure he quoted about $5000 for a full wing kit including lift struts. That was more than I was looking to spend, but I did ask if I could buy the wing construction manuals from him to see the individual parts in the KF wing. He said sure, and sent them out. I also asked if I could purchase individual wing parts, and he said that I could, but they would cost more per part that way.
     
    I've been putting together a parts list for a partial wing kit to get a price, but I have a few questions about using these wings on an Avid:
     
    Span - Should I stick with the 12' wing like the original MKIV wings. I'm thinking this would be the safest bet since everything else (carry through, struts, strut attach points) was engineered for 12' wings.
     
    Gross weight - I read the "Wing Technical Data" thread, and it looks like the MKIV with the HH wings was good for 1150 (later changed to 1200?). The HH wings used .083" wall spars, and 7/8" struts. I've got the 7/8" struts that came with my kit, but the KF spars are .063". They do have the "I" beam stiffener though. I think later KFs use this same spar, and have higher gross weights. I'm thinking it should be pretty safe to set my gross at 1150. Does this sound reasonable?
     
    Wing tips - This is more about personal taste I guess. At first I was not a fan of the Avid wing tip style, but it's starting to grow on me, and I think it is kind of part of the classic Avid look. I'm thinking of putting my old Avid tips on KF wings. Any issues with this?
     
    Gas tanks - I'd like to have the option to run auto fuel. Does anyone know if the KF tanks can handle auto fuel without any issues?
     
    Guess that's pretty much it. What do you guys think?
     
    Thanks,
    Luke D.
     
     
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  22. EDMO added a post in a topic Anyone tried one of these lights??   

    I just looked at a 50 watt HID rectangular spotlight that puts out 5000 lumens and draws only 4.7 amps - Soob alternators can handle it - 2 bangers would have to carry a spare battery.
    EDMO
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  23. SuberAvid added a post in a topic VG's on underside of HH wing   

    Hi Kenneth,
     
    The first set of VG's I installed on the top of my wings I used a glue like superglu but I think it was made by Locktite.  It is definately permanent.  This set came with  precut cards that you peeled the top paper off, stuck the VG onto the exposed glue and they peeled off the bottom paper to it left a thin surface of rubbery glue on the VG.  They are definately not as permanent and I think you could just peel them off the wing if you  wanted to.
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  24. EDMO added a post in a topic Model A cable brake rudder pedals   

    If you need pictures, then I guess someone could post photos or a copy from the manual - all I have for Avid is the Magnum, but would post that if no other is available - but there should be some for your Avid either on here or in someones manual.  guess you may need someone to write in dimensions too.
    EDMO
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  25. EDMO added a post in a topic LIFT STRUT TEST   

    I think you should be just fine by splicing the larger tubing over the stubs - you should fishtail and rosette weld, as per AC43-13.
    - I had to make new struts and didn't want to cut up the old 7/8 pair because they were good.   My new ones are longer and the fuselage attach fitting has to be at a different angle.
    I happened to find some nos aircraft rod ends at a cheap price - and they are 7/16 thread and 5/16 bolt - didn't think I needed the bigger ones, but it wont hurt either, so going to put them on all 4 struts.  Using 1" x .049 wall tubes.
    EDMO
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