Are the F7A arms working right

[TJay 1041]

Ok started final flaperon rigging today tell me if they are working correctly or not, Because I'm not sure, this test is done with the stick all the way to the left,

Right wing flaperon trailing edge is down 20.5 degrees

Left wing flaperon trailing edge is up 16.6 degrees

Is this how it is suspost to work or is this backwards,

[akflyer 1427]

that is backwards.  It is supposed to give you more up than down.  Did you put the arms in upside down?  How about a pic of the arms.

 

[akflyer 1427]

dumb question.  Is the tail blocked up level?  Or did you zero that level in the neutral position on the flaperons?

 

[TJay 1041]

dumb question.  Is the tail blocked up level?  Or did you zero that level in the neutral position on the flaperons?

 

Leveled the under side of the plane  as described in manual

with the stick in the center both flaperons are 0 degrees they both do the same thing, I was wondering if that was right, maybe the f7a arms don't work with the kitfox 1 mixer set up, I cant see any way to make it work right,

[1avidflyer 1983]

TJay, can you take a pic of the original belcranks and post it?  JImChuk

[EDMO 1078]

TJay, can you take a pic of the original belcranks and post it?  JImChuk

Jim,  Here is drawing from Kitfox 1 manual - might help.  EDMO

[TJay 1041]

Here are the originals I laid them on top of the mixer to give an idea of what they look like,

[EDMO 1078]

TJay,  Would it be possible that you have the first bellcrank by the control sticks reversed?  Or, maybe it needs to be reversed from how it is now?   Maybe that would not be the problem?  Would the F7As work upside down?   I can look tomorrow at my KF3 to see if it has this mod.  The KF4 assembly was completely different.   EdMO

Edited 21 Jan 2017 by EDMO

[TJay 1041]

Well I looked at it a bunch again tonight and kinda figured out how it works, But I really don't think its compatible with the Kitfox 1 system. When I bought them years ago Airdale did say these are for a model 3, and wasn't sure they would work in the model 1.  When I pull flaps it is twice as bad, that tells me that the threaded rods need to be shortened to get the correct Horizontal and vertical  movement, well if I did that I would need to make longer rods going up to the flaperon horn or move the horn down do I don't have 6 degrees of negitive reflex In all honestly not sure it worth messing with, I flew the hell out of my Quad City Challenger and never did it bother me, I'll play with it tomorrow for a bid too and see if there is a simpler fix and let you guys know, Otherwise I may have a nice set of kitfox 3 F7A arms for sale.

[EDMO 1078]

Well I looked at it a bunch again tonight and kinda figured out how it works, But I really don't think its compatible with the Kitfox 1 system. When I bought them years ago Airdale did say these are for a model 3, and wasn't sure they would work in the model 1.  When I pull flaps it is twice as bad, that tells me that the threaded rods need to be shortened to get the correct Horizontal and vertical  movement, well if I did that I would need to make longer rods going up to the flaperon horn or move the horn down do I don't have 6 degrees of negitive reflex In all honestly not sure it worth messing with, I flew the hell out of my Quad City Challenger and never did it bother me, I'll play with it tomorrow for a bid too and see if there is a simpler fix and let you guys know, Otherwise I may have a nice set of kitfox 3 F7A arms for sale.

TJay,  I will take some photos of my KF3 controls tomorrow whether or not they have the F7A mods - That way I can post them and we can compare them to your KF1 controls.   The KF3 controls are more like yours and not like the KF4 controls.   I know you don't want to fly with excess adverse yaw.  EDMO

I designed my Foxy Flapper aileron controls so that I get about 2x UP aileron as Down - that should give me some positive yaw - but my controls are completely different than the Kitfox flaperon controls.  EDMO

Edited 21 Jan 2017 by EDMO

[akflyer 1427]

We put them in bobs mod 1.  I know they work in it.  I will talk to him tomorrow or search more on the computer when I get in the office. 

Edited 21 Jan 2017 by akflyer

[akflyer 1427]

I wouldn't worry too much about the negative reflex.  I hate running negative as it does add a good pit of pressure to the stick in roll.  I would set them up for maybe 1-2 degrees reflex tops and see how that works for you.

 

[EDMO 1078]

TJAY,  Here are 3 photos I took today - donno if they help any - neither of mine have the F7A mods.

First photo on the white box is KF2 assembly.  Next two of the orange fuselage is KF3 - note that both have a brace on the F7s that is not shown in the Kitfox 1 drawing I posted.   EDMO

[TJay 1041]

Thanks for the pics I see some braces on the other bell cranks too, I messed with the f7a arms again today.  tried everything I could think of longer rods up to the wings, different angles on the f7a arms, Had them at one spot where they worked but when I pulled the flap lever up even an 1/8 inch they would go the other way again, Odds are I won't use them, and with my bigger tail It probably wouldn't make any difference, I do like the extra bracing, think I will do that, Ha and I thought I was done welding on this thing,

[EDMO 1078]

Hang in there - Maybe Leni will get you pictures of a Kitfox 1 with F7As that are working OK.   You can fly with the old setup but the adverse yaw is something you can do without.   EDMO

Edited 21 Jan 2017 by EDMO

[1avidflyer 1983]

Lead the turns with the rudder, and watch/believe the ball.  No big deal with the adverse yaw IMHO.  JImChuk

[EDMO 1078]

Lead the turns with the rudder, and watch/believe the ball.  No big deal with the adverse yaw IMHO.  JImChuk

Totally agree Jim, but if he has the parts to make it coordinate turns better and can make them work, then why not use them?   EDMO

[1avidflyer 1983]

Ya, you're right Ed.  I guess I'm just trying to say these planes are plenty flyable as they started out...  JImChuk

[akflyer 1427]

the KF I mixer is the same as the avid mixers except square tubing was used in a few places.. I am not understanding why your getting reversed reading from what it should be.

 

[TJay 1041]

since I'm only a border line genius, I can only give my opinion, here is what I think is happening, I really don't think these are giving true differential effect, It appears to me that the only way they work is when you set the flaps to a negative reflex of lets say 4 degrees, so when you push the stick over the trailing edge of the down flap travels lets say 8 degrees but in reality its only 4 degrees below level, Now since the trailing edge of the flap going up started 4 degrees above level and now moved 8 degrees up its actually 12 degrees above level, now the boys that have these and are using them can correct me if I'm wrong but that's the way it looks to me,

[akflyer 1427]

well now you got me scratching my junk and wondering if mine a really working like they should.. I will have to run out to the plane next week when I get home and check into it.  It will only take a minute to check it if I can't get my brother to do it between now and then.

 

 

[lostman 198]

well now you got me scratching my junk and wondering if mine a really working like they should.. I will have to run out to the plane next week when I get home and check into it.  It will only take a minute to check it if I can't get my brother to do it between now and then.

 

 

Leni, are you saying you think while scratching your junk and not your head? 

[EDMO 1078]

well now you got me scratching my junk and wondering if mine a really working like they should.. I will have to run out to the plane next week when I get home and check into it.  It will only take a minute to check it if I can't get my brother to do it between now and then.

 

 

Maybe that is why the Kitfox 4 controls were redesigned - they couldn't get the F7As to work right either?   I never understood them - that is why I designed my own simple controls.    Maybe the Avids are enough different that they work?   EDMO

Edited 22 Jan 2017 by EDMO

[akflyer 1427]

well now you got me scratching my junk and wondering if mine a really working like they should.. I will have to run out to the plane next week when I get home and check into it.  It will only take a minute to check it if I can't get my brother to do it between now and then.

 

 

Leni, are you saying you think while scratching your junk and not your head? 

ohoh.. is it just me??  I thought every man thought better while playing with his pecker.. damn.. no wonder I keep getting funny looks out in the shop.

 

 

[Avid90 12]

Here is a picture of the arms on my "A" model Avid.  I don't care the way the pivot point is welded on the top of the sector without any additional reinforcement, but that's the way it is.  It seems to me that the differential movement of the flaperons is due to the unequal distance that the output end of the sector moves from neutral to up, and neutral to down through its arc--more distance traveled at the output end as it goes up as compared to going down.  The crank at the flaperons, however, is ahead of the flaperon pivot point, so as the sector pushes up, the flaperons go down.  It seems that the differential is the wrong way--more down than up, but I can't confirm it because the wings are off my plane at this point.