Working on your eab plane - signoff requirements

[Yamma-Fox 403]

This topic has been hashed before I am sure, but what are your guys interpretations on the A&P signoff requirement.

Lets narrow this down:  Non-builder (no reapirmans certificate) does work on his EAB aircraft (above and beyond routine mx... say, rebuild his non cert engine) (a scenario near and dear to me )

I ran across this post in the eaa forums and found a knowledgeable and seemingly reputable member post this:

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Clarification: The work does not have to be specifically signed off by an A&P...it is not necessary to gain A&P approval before returning the airplane to service. Rather, during the next Conditional Inspection, the A&P will assess whether the aircraft is airworthy, INCLUDING the work that you'd done.

I'm in exactly that situation: I extensively modified the electrical system of my Fly Baby, and have been flying it with no problems for the past two months. My Condition Inspection is due, and I've told my A&P about the modifications and warned him that the annual might take a bit more time as he examines my work.

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No one in the post raised objection to that comment.  I hope it is accurate.

What do you guys say?

(Source:  http://eaaforums.org/showthread.php?2088-I-m-confused-about-the-maintenance-and-annuals-on-an-experimental-I-purchase  )

Edited 8 Nov 2016 by MN Kitfox 2

[marksires 484]

It is correct - the only time and A&P has to be involved is the annual condition inspection if you don't hold the repairman certificate.  Note that it does not have to be an IA, only an A&P is required to perform the condition inspection of an amateur built experimental aircraft.

Also note that you must pay attention to your operating limitations issued with the airworthiness certificate.  Overhauling the engine isn't a big deal, but if you change the engine to a different kind, or change the propeller, or modify the control surfaces (basically anything that is likely to change the flight characteristics), your operating limits probably require you to to go back to phase 2 testing for 5 hours.  You don't have to notify the FSDO, but you need to log the switch to phase 2 testing, log the completion of the 5 hours and return to normal operations.

That's one of the reason you have the big EXPERIMENTAL placard where passengers can see it.

Mark

 

Edited 8 Nov 2016 by marksires

[EDMO 1078]

It is correct - the only time and A&P has to be involved is the annual condition inspection if you don't hold the repairman certificate.  Note that it does not have to be an IA, only an A&P is required to perform the condition inspection of an amateur built experimental aircraft.

Also note that you must pay attention to your operating limitations issued with the airworthiness certificate.  Overhauling the engine isn't a big deal, but if you change the engine to a different kind, or change the propeller, or modify the control surfaces (basically anything that is likely to change the flight characteristics), your operating limits probably require you to to go back to phase 2 testing for 5 hours.  You don't have to notify the FSDO, but you need to log the switch to phase 2 testing, log the completion of the 5 hours and return to normal operations.

That's one of the reason you have the big EXPERIMENTAL placard where passengers can see it.

Mark

 

Mark,  I think you meant that any major modification will mandate that you put the plane back into Phase One - not phase 2.   Unless you have the latest Operating Limitations you may have to have another Airworthiness Inspection and the inspector can tell you how many hours you have to fly in Phase 1 which is a minimum of 5 hours - it could be more.  

NOTE:  If your Op Lims require you to have this AW inspection then they are the old type - The new type only requires a logbook entry and YOU put it back into Phase 1 for minimum of 5 hours.   Have them changed  to the latest type at the time of the AW inspection if you cant get that done by FSDO before major changes are to be made.   EDMO

Edited 8 Nov 2016 by EDMO

[marksires 484]

You are right Ed, thanks for the corrections!

[Yamma-Fox 403]

Thanks guys!  Are the operating limitations spelled out in entirety on the special airworthiness certificate?

And it looks like I'll definetely be going to phase 1 then, for the float install and wing extensions.  And also if I go with the Yamaha Genesis conversion.

So what would be the easiest way to jump through all those paperwork hoops?

If I understand  what you are saying Ed, I should get my op limitations changed to the new type before I go to work.

Edited 8 Nov 2016 by MN Kitfox 2

[C5Engineer 1170]

Yes the operating limitations that came with mine are 3 pages long and  reviewing them was 75% of my DAR visit. He didn't really care about the airplane only that I knew what I could and couldn't do with it. 

[EDMO 1078]

Thanks guys!  Are the operating limitations spelled out in entirety on the special airworthiness certificate?

And it looks like I'll definetely be going to phase 1 then, for the float install and wing extensions.  And also if I go with the Yamaha Genesis conversion.

So what would be the easiest way to jump through all those paperwork hoops?

If I understand  what you are saying Ed, I should get my op limitations changed to the new type before I go to work.

I understand that some guys have contacted their FSDO and got the OP LIMS changed with a phone call - others have been told that they had to have a new Airworthiness Inspection done before changing them - You can read the new OP LIMS on either the FAA site or thru the EAA.  Check your OPLIMS carefully and see if they let you do a major change with only a logbook entry, or if they say you need an inspection for that.  I forget what the AC number is, but think it is something like AC27---H now, but G was good enough, I think.  Some may have better info on this.   EDMO

[marksires 484]

The special airworthiness certificate is a standard document, the operating limitations are a separate document, but the special airworthiness certificate references the operating limitations.  As Joey said, some of them are very long, and there isn't room on the special airworthiness certificate for all the verbage.

Mark

 

[EDMO 1078]

The special airworthiness certificate is a standard document, the operating limitations are a separate document, but the special airworthiness certificate references the operating limitations.  As Joey said, some of them are very long, and there isn't room on the special airworthiness certificate for all the verbage.

Mark

 

If you don't have a copy of your OPLIMs, or the AW cert don't show which OPLIMs you have, you can get copies of all the papers, or on a CD disk on your plane N-number from the FAA on the internet for a small fee.   You might get lucky and some "nice" person at your FSDO would look them up for you.....  EDMO

Edited 8 Nov 2016 by EDMO

[Yamma-Fox 403]

Great.   Got it.  Yeah i went through the big box of docs that came with the airplane but have not come across the big copy of oplims. (But I did learn alot about my bird paging through the builders manual / logs!)

Thanks a ton guys!  I'm a new guy when it comes to the eab stuff (and new to eaa). This info will help when i meet the local chapter.  Now I'll at least know my head from my tail!

Sure glad to be free from the bleeping certified side!   (I was almost becoming "certifiable".... couldn't even stick on a 1oz plastic GoPro mount without a bleeping field approval!!)

[C5Engineer 1170]

And always remember if it's not in the logbooks it didn't happen. Keep your logs clean. The only thing required to be documented is the conditional inspection every year. If you can find a big picture A and P that won't try and treat it as certified you will be golden. My first one wouldn't sign me off because of no compass card. I scribbled some jibberish on a yellow sticky note and handed it to him. 

[1avidflyer 1983]

The operating limitations are supposed to be carried in the plane when it's flown.  Maybe yours are in there.  As far as the change in the operating limitations and changes to them, the big difference on how a major change was addressed by the FAA came about in 1990 or 91 if my memory is correct.  Before that time, a major change had to be inspected by the FAA, after that time, it became a  notice to the FAA and phase 1 flight testing.  Jim Chuk

[EDMO 1078]

Does AC-2027-G or H sound about right?  EDMO

[Av8r3400 1179]

You can do whatever you want to your experimental aircraft.  It only needs an A&P signoff once per year at the annual condition inspection.

 

As Joey said, keep the logs clean. 

[Yamma-Fox 403]

Great,  this plane hit the skies in 1997, so hopefully i am in the new rules (concerning magor alterations).

The airplane is 15 mi away.... but now that you mention it, i think the op lims were in the plane docs when i checked it over prior to purchase.

I did order up another copy from the faa just now as well.

I'll update the post once i get a look at the details.

I learned a ton here.  Thanks guys!

 

Edited 9 Nov 2016 by MN Kitfox 2