Tri gear to tail dragger

[birddog486 21]

Back in the early days of Avid I know they were using the same gear for the Tri gear and tail dragger, just swapping them side to side and I'm wondering how this worked out. I'm going to be changing from the tri gear to tail dragger and with so many different gear out there is it worth it to change to more of a bush style taller/wider gear. I've got the c model legs without the step.

 

The area I fly is either paved runways or fairly smooth grass

 

Travis

Edited 4 Sep 2014 by birddog486

[EDMO 1078]

Travis,

     Contrary to the things you heard about swapping the gear - It don't work!    The arms on the bungee type gear would be at the rear of the seat instead of in the front where the bungees attach.   I guess you could cut the arms off and reweld them, but still not sure the wheels would be in correct location.

     With cabane type gear - it might work???   But, why would you want to change - So you could practice groundloops???

EDMO

Edited 4 Sep 2014 by Ed In Missouri

[birddog486 21]

Ed, the gear is swapped left to right which moves the bungee attachment to the front

[EDMO 1078]

Unless your gear is different than Kitfox, the attachment is in the front of the seat area normally, swapping it is going to change positions of the bungee arms front to rear.  Think about it a while.

EDMO

Edited 4 Sep 2014 by Ed In Missouri

[birddog486 21]

The attach point for the tri gear bungees is behing the seat.

 

Edited 4 Sep 2014 by birddog486

[birddog486 21]

Ed, here's another pic showing the bungee attach point for the tri gear. The front bungee attach point for the tail dragger is at the front of the fabric

 

Edited 4 Sep 2014 by birddog486

[marksires 484]

Travis,

I'm just south of you in central Illinois (KIJX). I have what is either a late C or early D (later mk IV, the build manual says 'D', the tail was still square originally though) taildragger I'm thinking of converting to a nose gear. I'm stripping the fabric off to recover this fall, and would be willing to throw one of the taildragger main gear legs in the Cherokee and head that way so we can both see if there are any differences.

Mark

[EDMO 1078]

Travis,

     You mean the Avid has TWO attach points, so the gear CAN be swapped?  My Kitfoxes were not convertible, and only had the TD attach at the front of the seat - Maybe you can do that?  But why not just drag the tailskid until you want to stop - or go!     My latest is Nose Dragger only - would need new attach points to be TD.   Thanks for the belly pictures of the convertible Avid - Never had seen one before.  Bet that others have not seen one either - suggest you post them in the proper Avid section for all to see.

EX-TD Pilot,  EDMO

Edited 5 Sep 2014 by Ed In Missouri

[birddog486 21]

Yes Ed, there's TWO bungee attach points one in front and one behing the seat.

 

Mark I just looked at a pic of your plane and I think I'm seeing a difference in the gear leg. I took a pic of mine and it looks like the axle is centered on the leg. The gear leg on yours looks to have the front tube at a 90 moving the axle farther forward. I'm not sure if that would make a whole lot of difference but I'm sure theres a reason for it.

 

Travis

 

[EDMO 1078]

Travis,

      The wheel location on the gear leg would possibly have lots to do with balance and handling on the ground - You need someone with better technical info - Now, Mark, is yours a convertible?

      I can look at the gear in my Magnum book and get an axle/wheel location from the leading edge, if that would help - Got the same in my Kitfox books too - I think.  The original Kitfox gearlegs were offset from center, and when they went convertible it was with the Grove gear.

      do you use a different set of brackets when you go from ND to TD?

DO you have a manual for this bird?

EdMO

I checked my Avid Magnum manual and the sample gives the axle at 1.25 inches in front of the leading edge, with the plane in a level position.  My Kitfox 4 sample gives average of 3.25 inches to rear of Leading edge.

I will bet the Doug Holly has some technical info on this.....

ED

Edited 5 Sep 2014 by Ed In Missouri

[marksires 484]

Travis,

It is hard to tell from the pictures. Level my plane up like yours, swap the legs, and then move the fairing to the other tube, and the difference might just be an optical illusion.

Mark

[marksires 484]

Ed,

My build manual talks about nose gear, I have both main gear attach points, but don't have the nose gear weldment in the frame right now. I have a nose gear weldment to put in. Have to practice a lot more with the TIG or find a good welder though!

Mark

[EDMO 1078]

Mark,

     It would be a fairly long trip for you, but maybe not much farther than the 100 mile round trip I make, to go to a FAA approved certified repair station welder, who does my work now that the doctors told me to stay out of welding smoke.  I can give you the info on PM if you want it.   You would have to truck it to him - hopefully you could talk him into welding it while you wait.   He is at New Melle, Missouri.  I have to take mine and the struts over to him this fall.

I don't know which Avid gearlegs are good for the conversion, but it will make a big difference to use the wrong ones. 

   EDMO

BTW:  He builds WACO fuselages from factory blueprints, and the FAA goes to him for welding.  He is good!

Edited 5 Sep 2014 by Ed In Missouri

[BryceKat 125]

Travis,

My mkiv originally had factory tri gear. I converted it to a taildragger by swapping the mains left to right and moving them to the forward attach point and flew it for 50 hrs off grass and pavement. So it can be done. Looks like shit tho. And it's too easy to get the tail up/nose down with the brakes cause the axle is too far rearward. I posted an ad on Barnstormers for some mains and was able to get them for a couple hundred. They're out there, you gotta hunt 'em down tho. Bryce

[EDMO 1078]

Bryce,

     If you have measurements of the "good" and "bad" positions for the axles in TD configuration, it might help Travis and Mark.  That should be on your W/B sheets, and maybe you still have the old ones.

EdMO

Edited 5 Sep 2014 by Ed In Missouri

[marksires 484]

Ed,

Thanks for the tip.  Doesn't look too far to me, but then I'm making regular trips between Illinois and our new Florida house with the truck and trailer.

 

Getting it over there won't be a problem, it fits into the trailer fine when the wings and horizontal stabilizer are off.  The stab is a royal pain, and was a surprise.  I knew a wing had to come off when I bought it, but the stab was a surprise.  Fun grinding down a wrench to get the nut off 1500 miles from home!

 

If Travis is interested, I'd still like to get up there with a leg (maybe both) so we can compare.  If they are different, then we can discuss a swap, or just make drawings of both kinds (and share them here), and then we can both make our own alternate gear.

 

Even though it might not be in my best interest, I'd recommend to Travis to consider some kind of wider gear if he converts to taildragger.  The stock gear is a handful on the ground, at least on asphalt.

 

Mark

[EDMO 1078]

Maybe someone with a "real" Avid TD will post their dimensions as shown on W/B from leading edge to main axle - That should be a good place to put the gear.

EDMO

Edited 5 Sep 2014 by Ed In Missouri

[marksires 484]

Ed,

Mine is a bone stock Avid 'C/D' STOL wing taildragger.  When I'm back in the same state as the airplane, I'll be happy to measure that.  Do you want that measurement when the plane is level (flying mode, like doing weight and balance), or sitting on the gear?

Mark

[EDMO 1078]

Mark,

      I think what I am trying to find out for Travis, is what gear was the standard for the TD, and maybe not the same as convertible. 

     IMO - For use on pavement and short grass, I would stay with the nose dragger.

The Kitfox gear is offset, with the front strut being like at a 90 degree angle to the fuselage, and the back strut at an angle. 

(I think this is right - I have a set stored away for my KF1)

      I sold a set of the Kitfox gear to Robert and he said they worked fine on his Avid until he changed to the bush gear.

 (Again - I think that is right - Too dang old this morning and forgot to take memory pills!}

The dimensions at level should be on your W/B sheets.  You could measure with tail down, but this could vary between planes depending on what tires, gear, tailwheel and spring is on the planes.   The planes with the heavy engines would have the gear farther forward than the 2-strokes.

     I would like to see a comparison of your W/B axle location to Bryce and lots of others with standard TD gear.

Maybe we could get a consensus of where the axle is supposed to be for TD operations from the W/B papers?

 

EdMO

Edited 6 Sep 2014 by Ed In Missouri

[BryceKat 125]

Off the top of my head the axle moves forward 6". Tri gear mains put the axle 1/2 between the gear mounting points and the tail dragger gear puts the axle directly under the forward mounting point. I think the span between the 2 mounting points is 12". Bryce

[SuberAvid 617]

Travis,

 

I have a set of stock Avid TD gear (unused) I would sell for $150 or so but don't know what the shipping would be from AK.  If you are interested, let me know and we can work something out I am sure.

 

Randy

[Trackwelder 12]

Not trying to undercut anyone, but I have a set of Model A Main gear that is reversible I would sell for $100 or trade for rudder torque tubes shipping would be cheaper from Iowa.

[EDMO 1078]

Trackwelder,

      What is a rudder torque tube?  My Kitfoxes only have rudder cables.  Are you talking about the  part that connects the rudder to the tailwheel springs?

EDMO

Edited 19 Sep 2014 by Ed In Missouri

[akflyer 1427]

If anyone is running bungee gear, I highly highly recommend they slip a tube inside the tube the bungee wraps around.. they break at the toe of the weld on that tube.  My Avid was on its back twice prior to me buying it because of this, and I got to take that ride in my brothers kitfox when his gear broke at the same spot.  I know of others on this forum who have learned the hard way about that gear breaking.

 

[EDMO 1078]

After having a cup of coffee to wake up on, I am thinking that Trackwelder is referring to the tubes that support the rudder pedals???  If I have an extra set, they are for Kitfox, and will not have the reinforcement triangles welded on.

EdMO

Edited 20 Sep 2014 by Ed In Missouri