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I may need to replace the ends of the MC rods with forked ends, but I have not found where Grove or Matco offers these separate.

EDMO

Ed

I ordered from Matco the 1/2 bore MC's.

Mike

You are correct about the the more pedal travel required when using smaller bore Master cylinders and in my case it is a non issue and the only way I can get the brake performance I need for 29" tall tires.

I could have stayed with the 5/8's bore MC and gone with the dual caliper system per side that Matco offers which many of the Just Highlanders use.

The dual caliper system would also increase the pedal travel

It is definately inhospitable country once you head up the Knik Glacier there is no good place between there and Valdez except a few miles of snowfield at the top of the glacier, everything else is vertical or knife edge rocks or ice or cold ocean.  I do like the way that Subie hums along though; after 325 hours behind it it does help build confidence in it.  I don't want to get complacent with it but it is about as close to operating like a car as any plane could be.  I still pop the cowl and check things over before every flight though.

Oh, I guess I should learn to spell Valdez; sorry to all you Valdez folks about that.

The Lil Cub was covered with the Oratex.  I didn't ask him what weight he used but suspect it was the lightest weight 600 since you could see the light through it.  He didn't even have any wing tips on it; you could look right into the end of the wing all the way to the fusalage.

 I think Paul got some of the most intermittent gustyness to contend with of anyone, on both the heavy cruiser category flying his 185 and the bush plane category with the cub.  He managed to get the bad wind for both on each pass.  Still did real good.

Here's the lower frame mounting tab.

I'm ready to mount in my original spar tube aluminum header tank behind the seat but am not quite sure how others have done it. there are two tabs welded on the side that I assume are for mounting but my airframe doesn't have anything to attach them to. I originally only had the small nose tank. If i use adel clamps then it turns the out on the bottom to face the wrong direction. I was hoping for some pics of how others have mounted it. also what size should I drill/ tap the holes for the fittings to screw in to.

-Robert-

Great pictures and trip report, as always. Leni, I agree completely. I've had three engine out landings in five years now. It takes a while every time I get back in a plane to trust it again. It doesn't matter what airplane it is either. Guess by your analogy I'm a pretty good poker player.

Herman and Mike,

      Thanks for the replies.   Herman, Matco makes an insert to change the bore from 5/8 to 1/2" - simple to install, and cheaper than new MCs.  Unfortunately, they may not work in your Cleveland MCs.

      I understand the differences in the advantage, and disadvantage, of the small bores - just cant understand the difference in psi claims for the 5/8 bores.   I haven't seen where Grove makes any pedals, so the lever attachment could be just about anywhere.

Fortunately, I now have both brands of MCs to use with my Grove calipers, so I may be able to compare results.

I think the MC-4? I have are 1/2" bore?

EDMO

Looks like Paul had a little different wind to contend with, his feet and arms were working overtime on those controls!

Franks story is pretty amazing.  3 months from a burned pile of rubble to winning at Valdez again.  I think lil cub is covered in oracover too isn't it?

That one looks like an AVweb contender.  I love sunrise and sunset flights.  Awesome picture as usual Randy!

Doug, took me about 3 flights.. originally, about another 20 hours after the engine out.  If I worried about all the different ways to die I would hide in my room and never come out.

Do I fly higher over cold open water, yep I sure do but I don't worry about what I cant control.  If or when it happens you just do the best you can to bluff the shitty cards in your hand and hopefully the maker will fold and let you rake in the pot one more time.

Ed:

Matco probably only gives a 600 psi rating to their masters because that is the psi limit that their bottom end systems are engineered to work effectively to. There are so many wasy to configure mc's in a toe brakeing system and all the variables feed off each other.ultimately the weakest link is the make or break for how much line psi any system will develop. the weakest link typically is that most brakesystems for ac are bult to known set of compromises to control overall weight. Herman makes valid points about the 1/2 to 5/8 bore scenario, but in the typical avid system/setup, the smaller the bore the furthur the mc must stroke to move the same ammount of fluid for activation as it's larger counterpart and hence less mechanical leverage because of the extra movement. So basically gain leverage in one area lose it in another>

Great trip report, thanks! I bet a Valdez pilgrimage is on the bucket list for many AK flyers, kind of like a fly in arrival at AirVenture OSH is for us in the lower 48. AK is truly a breathtaking -but potentially very inhospitable- place to fly. I personally have such a hard time trusting a new (or new to me) engine for a long time, I'm sure a trip like this would test my mettle. How long does it take before a E-AB builder/pilot can jump in his/her plane and feel just as confident and comfortable as if they are hopping into their car for a trip to the grocery store?

Thanks for all the great photos and writeup, Randy.  You're quite the photographer and that territory is stunningly beautiful.  You're a lucky guy to have that in your backyard.

Hi Ed

Seems suspicious to me also that 2 different 5/8's bore MC's would make such drastic different pressures with all else being equal.

If the the bores and pedal pressures are the same and the leverage ratio of the pedal to MC are the same, the pressures should be very similar.

So here is what I learned regarding this subject just last week.

I recently bought a model  4 Kitfox with 21" Nanco's with the original 1998 kit supplied Matco internal facing calipers with 5/8 bore Cleveland master cylinders.

Brake performance was adequate with the 21" Nanco's on 8" dia. wheels.

The only way I could install my 29" Airstreaks on the model 4 was to take the Matco Series E brakes off my model 2 which accommodate 6" dia. wheels.

These brakes with 29" tires on the model 2 performed very well.

These same brakes on the model 4 were terrible at best.

The model 4 weighs 70 pounds more than the 2.

The model 2 has 1/2 bore MC's which make all the difference versus the model 4's  5/8 bore MC with the same calipers, rotors and tire diameter.

Matco prefers to know pressures before they want to take the time to trouble shoot brake issues.

So I hooked up a 1000 psi gauge and found the 1/2 MC's put out 800 psi and the 5/8 only 450 at what felt like similar foot pressure.

The model 4 had another set of holes only a 1/4" closer to the fulcrum and the pressure went up to 600.

When I install 1/2 bore MC's on the model 4   I expect much improved brake performance.

Leverages and bore make a big difference in brake performance from my recent experience.

Herman

Part Two:

The last count I heard was over 230 planes on the ground at Valdeze.  The weather was perfect again on Sat, in the 60's and no clouds.  Pretty much everyone got a good sunburn; I think second picture in this group pretty much says it all; how nuch more fun can you have that that in the sunshine watching people play with their $100'sK toys.  A couple of pictures of the Lil Cub and the Just STOL that competed and a few of the others.  It was fun to see those guys in the big hardware leaving a lot of expensive rubber on the pavement.

Oh, I got a text from my buddy that they were leaving Palmer about 7:00 Sat morning and asked how it looked; winds were still a bit gusty but were manageable I thought, but I was late reading his message so he didn't get my text before he left anyway.  We were eating breakfast at the airport and I texted him to see if he had made it in yet; no answer.  While we were listening to a talk by Paul Clause, Richard Wein, the Nellis brothers and one other I didn't know, some great experienced pilots, telling of some of their experiences we heard that someone had just groundlooped.  Sure enough...  Another riend I talked to there said that anyone can groundloop and wreck their plane out in the middle of nowwhere by themselves and not tell anybody about it but a select few; but it takes a real man to wreck in front of 400 spectators for their viewing pleasure.  Everyone was ok and the plane is not to bad so should be back up and flying again soon with a few repair bills.

Bill and I got out flying after the competition and did a cool couple hour tour of the Valdeze area out toward Cordova and saw quite a few goats and black bears, it was fun to see the area with a great guide; then got back to Valdeze for another restful night.

The flight back was spectacular on another perfectly clear day, the glaciers are so impressive I had to take another bunch of pictures going back.  By the time I got back near the end of the Knik Glacier I was down enough on fuel that the plane was feeling pretty light again so there was a strip up in Grasshopper Valley that I had never landed; partially because I knew of a couple of guys that cracked ther planes up there.  I looked it over and it looked pretty good so I landed it.  My roll was about 280 ft so I sure wasn't going to win at Valdeze but I still had quite a bit of gear in the plane.  The strip is kind of blown out with a lot of big whoop-de-dos but the 30's really help tame that stuff.  Looks like I might have to try hunting in there sometime.

Still made it home in plenty to time to buy the Mothers day present and had a great BBQ with the kids and 20 mo. old grandson; a blessed weekend I would say!

Looks like you should frame that one,very cool

Wow . amazing pictures there Randy, looks like some crazy country below you

This will be quite a lot of pictures if I can get tehm all to load OK through my old dial up connection.  It was perfectly clear weather on Friday and I planned to fly over with a friend and possibly two in a couple of Champs leaving at about 5:30 PM.  One of the guys never got back with us so my frien had another buddy in a T-craft who was going so that would work fine also.  When we checked weatehr the wind was gusting 25 to 38 knots in Valdeze and my buddy had only had his Champ for a little while; about 20 hrs TW time (lots more time in tricycle) so decided he decided to wait until Sat morning.  Since he had another buddy to fly with and I talked to Bill who said winds had lightened up some in Valdeze, I decided to go ahead and go. 

I went over the top of the Knik Glacier (highest spot) at 9500 ft.  I was sure glad I put on a sweatshirt before I took off and was even wishing I had a pair of wool gloves handy by the time I was getting close to Valdeze. (I already pulled my heater collectors for the summer).  The scenery going over the top is just incredible with the glaciers and snowfields on the Knik side and the glaciers and fiords on the Prince William Sound side.  After crossing over the top of the Knik Glacier I flew pretty much the direct line on the GPS to Valdeze across the ends of Harvard and Yale Glaciers and College Fiord, then Unakwik Inlet which had gone much further into Meares glacier than my chart showed that I wondered about my position for a bit.  Then past Kaden lake and across the end of the huge Columbia Glacier and into the Valdeze arm.  Valdeze does not really look like much coming in at 8500 ft with the sun setting and I was wondering if that was it but the GPS didn't lie.

Bill was waiting for me so we got the plane parked and tied down, grabbed my gear and headed for a good night's rest.

Got that sunset picture to come out better, much more like it looked.

It was a blast getting to be there for the fun and to hang out with Bill (EWG); thanks again for your hospitality Bill! 

Both those Breedens a amazing at perfectly controlling their plane; extremely smooth and precise.  They didn't leave anything wasted on takeoff and I think they nailed the landings perfectly without scratching.  Sounds like they fly hours EVERY DAY for practice.  Frank Knap's Lil Cub is truely purpose built for this and he flies it a lot too, but not this past year because he just finished rebuilding it completely about 2 weeks ago since it burned up in a hangar fire this past winter. The Just STOL did really well also but just could not quite beat the Lil Cub.  One experimental cub had nitrous on it; you could set the puff of white smoke  instant rpm boost just after he hit full throttle.

I will post pictures of the trip and of these planes in the pics section.

I've been thru two hydraulic courses in my life, and didn't think I was one of the dumbest in the classes -

Sooo - Someone please explain to me why and how the Grove MC with 5/8 bore and short stroke makes their claimed 1000 psi, while the Matco MCs only give 600 psi with the same bore and stroke.

EDMO

They are great sticks... But you really need to look at the change in winds throughout the contest then draw your own conclusion.. Had they had more time, they were going to do a fly off between them under more similar conditions. At any rate, I find it AMAZING that the SQ 12 and other super modded cubs got their asses handed to them by a straight wing cub. Just goes to show ya that money spent on a plane does not make the plane get in and out.. Only money put through the gas tanks can do it.

It cracks me up when guys trick out a plane then only have enough money left to fly it 20 hrs a year and not be able to do 1/100th of what they could have done had they saved the 50k in mods and put that money through the tanks.

Typical Paul (av8rps) posting…  Link