The First Time Out

[allonsye 85]

  Joey, the 60/60 advise/rule worked like a charm.

Congratulations!   What is the 60/60 rule?

60 up / 60 down.  Works great!

[allonsye 85]

""Where did you set the incidence of your flaperons with the handle clear down? A few negative degrees (reflex) seems to work pretty good. The more reflex you add the more nose up trim you will have using flapersons BUT there is a tradeoff because the roll axis will start getting stiff. As you start getting some time on her start playing with the flaperons in flight in very small increments. They are very sensitive to the pitch axis.""

 

Joey -

I didn't fiddle w/the flaperons at all surmising that the PO had them correct. My focus was on the panel forward with this project, because that's all it needed when I acquired it. But I'm beginning to wonder.  I don't think there's any neg incidence at all in them.  I can't push them down and achieve any nose up trim if that's what you're suggesting.

I've thought about this in the past, to inspect the flaperon rigging but I haven't come across any data/numbers for such.  It would be nice to know where 0 deg flaps actually is. Presently, the only elevator trim I have is a tab.  She needs some up trim and I can fiddle with the elevator trim for that.  It would be nice to achieve this w/the flaperons I have thought too.  But on the other hand, I'd prefer not to give up roll authority.

As an aside, I did fill the elevator gap. Now I'm looking at the rudder.  Likely next.

References?

Thanks,

Paul

Edited 25 Oct 2015 by allonsye

[thebriman 69]

level the airplane with a four foot level against the leading and trailing edge at the third rib outboard with a flap hanger on the right wing.  basically where the lift strut meets the spars.  thats the point of reference to level the fuse.  then center your sticks and you can then find your flapperon angles.

[C5Engineer 1170]

It's very unlikely that you would be able to get any useful "Up" trim using only flaperons like the manual states unless your CG is way far aft all the time. I rigged mine with something like 5 degrees reflex and that made it cruise just about hands off but it made the roll stiff. During cruise this was no big deal. I made it happen to crack on just a little bit of flaperon whenever I was flying around low or during the start of an approach which would waken the roll axis right back up. At low power and on approach I hated how much back pressure it took to keep the nose up. Installing the Electric trim with the MK4 elevator was a MAJOR upgrade. I figure I now have a chance at landing if my linkage were to ever come apart. Before I would of been a lawn dart.
 

If the airplane seems to flying okay to you then they are probably pretty close to where they want to be. The manuals call for 15 degrees of flap. Also not sure if you have the F7A mod or not but it basically made it so that there was differential flaperon for up and down travel to try and prevent some of the adverse yaw.

[allonsye 85]

Good explanation of the F7A mod (which I don't have) Joey thanks.  Wondered what that provided.   It sounds like the MK4 elv trim mod is the way to go and throw in the F7A for grins -- make trim changes as required when changing power settings.  Who would have the F7A, Airdale?

Edited 26 Oct 2015 by allonsye

[C5Engineer 1170]

I got mine from Airdale Good luck getting any parts at this point from Brett.

Link to when I did mine

[akflyer 1427]

I am pretty sure one of the members here was making them for a bit.  I will do a search and see if I can find that thread.

 

[wypaul 448]

That was me Leni but I am no longer offering them for sale.  I did post the dimensions if anyone wants to make their own.

Paul S

That can be found in the Files and Forms section.

Edited 28 Oct 2015 by wypaul

[RobS 52]

Here is a link to Paul's post on the F7A mod. And I contacted Brett months ago with no response . . . 

http://www.avidfoxflyers.com/index.php?/topic/3474-f7a/

[dynomike 91]

mine is setup the same as c5.a little reflex for cruise then another setting for faster roll.

[dholly 718]

I flew my KF3 (which had a similar mixer as Avid without the F7a mods) and never missed a thing.

Edited 28 Oct 2015 by dholly

[akflyer 1427]

I flew my KF3 (which had a similar mixer as Avid without the F7a mods) and never missed a thing.

I too have flown the KF I, II and III without the F7a.  It is not a miracle cure, but it does allow you to use more flaperon before you get into the controversial roll reversal scenario.  It also allows the feet to be a bit more relaxed.  I would rather have all the flaperon I can get without roll reversal and that's why I am running the F7A mod.  The 60/60 rule of thumb is pretty good, but I normally yank on the flaps when I show 35 on the ASI then bleed them off as I accelerate in ground affect to 55 or 60.  Getting those wheels off the ground will dump a lot of drag and get you to climb out speed quicker than letting it build up to 60 on the ground. 

I also fly down wind and all the way to short final around 80 indicated (when at the airport).  Then when I have the threshold made I pull the power and get in the flaperons and can slow to 45 in a VERY short distance and touchdown is around 40 or so with a touch of power.

One of these days I need to get the gopro set up in the plane and do a few laps around the pattern and see what my speeds truly are because I barely glance a the dash once I am in the pattern, its all by sound and feel for me.

 

[C5Engineer 1170]

That's the part I always try and stress to folks and the reason I end up high and fast every time I jump in a spam can. These things decelerate so quick it's not even funny.

[EDMO 1078]

I thought the F7A was only an Avid thingy?  Where does it go in the Kitfoxes?  Any photos of complete installation?

What does it replace?  Sorry, guess I haven't paid attention because I don't have an Avid - only clones...

EDMO

Edited 28 Oct 2015 by EDMO

[allonsye 85]

That's the part I always try and stress to folks and the reason I end up high and fast every time I jump in a spam can. These things decelerate so quick it's not even funny.

I guess it's kinda like comparing a tennis ball and badminton birdie with respect to the effects of inertia.

[allonsye 85]

I flew my KF3 (which had a similar mixer as Avid without the F7a mods) and never missed a thing.

I too have flown the KF I, II and III without the F7a.  It is not a miracle cure, but it does allow you to use more flaperon before you get into the controversial roll reversal scenario.  It also allows the feet to be a bit more relaxed.  I would rather have all the flaperon I can get without roll reversal and that's why I am running the F7A mod.  The 60/60 rule of thumb is pretty good, but I normally yank on the flaps when I show 35 on the ASI then bleed them off as I accelerate in ground affect to 55 or 60.  Getting those wheels off the ground will dump a lot of drag and get you to climb out speed quicker than letting it build up to 60 on the ground. 

I also fly down wind and all the way to short final around 80 indicated (when at the airport).  Then when I have the threshold made I pull the power and get in the flaperons and can slow to 45 in a VERY short distance and touchdown is around 40 or so with a touch of power.

One of these days I need to get the gopro set up in the plane and do a few laps around the pattern and see what my speeds truly are because I barely glance a the dash once I am in the pattern, its all by sound and feel for me.

 

What you say.  I'm finding this is the most comfortable to operate in.  

Now my concern is a deadstick scenario.  Better to be thinking in terms of clear area immediately below.

[akflyer 1427]

That's the part I always try and stress to folks and the reason I end up high and fast every time I jump in a spam can. These things decelerate so quick it's not even funny.

I guess it's kinda like comparing a tennis ball and badminton birdie with respect to the effects of inertia.

great analogy! 

[akflyer 1427]

I flew my KF3 (which had a similar mixer as Avid without the F7a mods) and never missed a thing.

I too have flown the KF I, II and III without the F7a.  It is not a miracle cure, but it does allow you to use more flaperon before you get into the controversial roll reversal scenario.  It also allows the feet to be a bit more relaxed.  I would rather have all the flaperon I can get without roll reversal and that's why I am running the F7A mod.  The 60/60 rule of thumb is pretty good, but I normally yank on the flaps when I show 35 on the ASI then bleed them off as I accelerate in ground affect to 55 or 60.  Getting those wheels off the ground will dump a lot of drag and get you to climb out speed quicker than letting it build up to 60 on the ground. 

I also fly down wind and all the way to short final around 80 indicated (when at the airport).  Then when I have the threshold made I pull the power and get in the flaperons and can slow to 45 in a VERY short distance and touchdown is around 40 or so with a touch of power.

One of these days I need to get the gopro set up in the plane and do a few laps around the pattern and see what my speeds truly are because I barely glance a the dash once I am in the pattern, its all by sound and feel for me.

 

What you say.  I'm finding this is the most comfortable to operate in.  

Now my concern is a deadstick scenario.  Better to be thinking in terms of clear area immediately below.

yes.  If you have a clutch its even worse!  That prop freewheeling is a HUGE air brake.  Trust me, when the engine quits you look pretty much straight down, pick the smallest rock or tree and try to hit that one.  Even worse on floats!  But I still LOVE my avid and will keep flying it till I can't fly no mo!

 

[C5Engineer 1170]

That's the part I always try and stress to folks and the reason I end up high and fast every time I jump in a spam can. These things decelerate so quick it's not even funny.

I guess it's kinda like comparing a tennis ball and badminton birdie with respect to the effects of inertia.

In the how to fly a Kitfox book they use this analogy over and over again.