Skunkworks - Electrical/ Weight Saving

[SuberAvid 617]

I liked Leni's topic and thought this might be a great place to bring up cool ideas for our planes.

I was talking to a Supercub friend last friday and and we of course started discussing ways to save weight in the airplanes. He said that he just ordered a lithium ion battery for his cub that has a build in gharger control technology that balances all the cells while charging so it does not need a special charger to "top it off" like most LI batteries. This battery weighs 2.5 lbs. I surfed LI batteries a bit and found there are a few; whethere you go with the built in balancing technology or buy the special charger, it looks like the prices range from $175 for a 400 CCA to $275 for a 500 CCA LI battery and about $100 for the charger or $375 for the 500 CCA with the built in balancing technology. The 500 CCA battery weighs 3 lbs. Even the "light" PC680 weighs 16 lbs I think (I didn't weigh mine yet or look it up to know for sure) What a fast way to shed 13 lbs though. I am going to see how he like his cranking over an o360 on his cub. The other thing this would allow me to do is move the LI battery to the firewall and pull out at least a pound of battery cables.

Another thing that came up was the trouble I have with my battery relay not working then it gets cold. If I shut down my plane for even 1 hour when it is below 0 my battery relay will often not trip my battery on. For that reason I carry an additional 20lb jumper battery with me in the winter. He suggested that I go to a solid state relay which should work better in below 0 conditions and weigh about 1 lb less. I surfed around and found one that looks like it should work up to 100VDC, 40A. I plan to move it to the firewall with the LI battery.

So far that would shed about 35 lbs from my plane in the winter.

Right now I have this all in the back of my cargo area, about 6' behind the seat so this will shift my W/B and I need at leat 10lbs back there to be in my CG range at any load combo but I weighed my survival gear and tools that I keep back ther always and they are just over 50 lbs so not a problem moving this stuff forward.

Next item is to really look at my survival gear and see what I can lighten and eliminate redundancy. I think I should be able to cut 10 lbs out of my suvival gear is I look at it closely. (down 45 lbs)

Maybe you all can list what you carry for survival gear and what you consider to be a real necessary with the least weight?

Edited 24 Dec 2012 by SuberAvid

[akflyer 1427]

I have been drooling over the 2 pound battery for months. The only thing that has held me back is unknown cold weather performance. I know the batteries used for my electric RC planes (lithium ion and lithium polymers) don't like the cold weather, although they do like it better than the old Nicad batteries of 20 yrs ago.... If I knew of people using these in cold climates with good results I would order one tomorrow.

I guess the flip side is, I have the engine pre-heater and I also preheat the cabin in the super cold temps too. I guess I could put one of the ducts close to the battery and heat it up as well. It would be nice to loose 15# without having to stop shoving food in my mouth

[1avidflyer 1983]

I was doing some searching about lithium ion batteries on the web just a couple of days ago, and from what I found, they don't last very long. I do realize that not everything on the web is totaly accurate, so who knows if it's true.?? The batteries I was looking at were for cordless drills so maybe that is somehow different. At any rate, I would check that out before I spend lots of money on a new battery. I do agree that getting rid of weight is the best thing we can do for the plane's performance. To bad it's so hard to do. Sorry if it sounds like I'm trying to bust your bubble, I've thought about getting a LI battery myself. Now I'm not so sure. Take care, Jim Chuk

Edited 24 Dec 2012 by Jim Chuk

[akflyer 1427]

I was doing some searching about lithium ion batteries on the web just a couple of days ago, and from what I found, they don't last very long. I do realize that not everything on the web is totaly accurate, so who knows if it's true.?? The batteries I was looking at were for cordless drills so maybe that is somehow different. At any rate, I would check that out before I spend lots of money on a new battery. I do agree that getting rid of weight is the best thing we can do for the plane's performance. To bad it's so hard to do. Sorry if it sounds like I'm trying to bust your bubble, I've thought about getting a LI battery myself. Now I'm not so sure. Take care, Jim Chuk

Jim,

Like everything else I have found that the batteries are only good for X amount of cycles. On powertools, we tend to run the batteries totally dead and then recharge, hence they will only go for so many full cycles. Also, you dont want to store the batteries with more than a 50% change for any length of time. On my RC planes, I will use my smart charger to charge them fully them discharge them to about 50% of the max capacity. This is only for the planes that I fly seasonally and will be setting for months at a time. Since I started doing that, I no longer have to buy 1500.00 worth of batteries every spring. A couple years of that had me figuring out ways to make them last longer

Like 80% of the guys on the supercub site say, the best way to get better performance out of an airplane (for most of us) is to go on a diet and loose the extra spare tire we carry around. It is easier and cheaper for my fat ass to drop the extra 40 pounds I am carrying than to get rid of 5 pounds from the airframe. The second best way to increase the performance is to put gas through the wing tanks! Alot of it!

[SuberAvid 617]

I talked to my buddy today; he installed the EarthX Lithium Ion battery in his 180 hp o360 Supercub this weekend. He says it cranks his engine much faster than the PC680 and seems to crank is at full power for a long time. He was taking his wife out flying and had the plane cranked up and running when his wife came out to get in; she made him shut it down so she didn't get wind blasted and he said it is always hard to restart when he shuts it down and restarts it immediately but he said the battery cranked it for a long time no problem. Still has to see how it will do when it is cold soaked but the specs say it is good to crank at -40. The battery is 3.3 lb; I weighed my PC680 battery and it weighs 14.3 lb.

[EDMO 1078]

Being an old dinosauer here - I know that I am probably several years behind on the electrical circuit

- BUT:

Didnt the FAA at one time ban those new-fangeled "Lithium-whatever" batteries from being carried on airplanes because of fire or explosive danger, maybe from altitude, or something?

Down here, I would be more concerned with overheating and fire than about freezing weather sucking the power down.

Your Black & Decker Lithium powered drill doesnt usually fly with you!

Any answers on this?

ED in MO

Edited 7 Jan 2013 by Ed In Missouri

[akflyer 1427]

Lithium ion batteries ahd a bad problem with overheating and then exploding. When they first hit the market we used them in the electric RC planes. I lost a couple of them due to over amping them and then watching them turn to fireballs in the sky. The new batteries are much better and dont explode the way the original ones did. If they were now banned, people would not be allowed to carry cell phones on the planes.

[EDMO 1078]

Lithium ion batteries ahd a bad problem with overheating and then exploding. When they first hit the market we used them in the electric RC planes. I lost a couple of them due to over amping them and then watching them turn to fireballs in the sky. The new batteries are much better and dont explode the way the original ones did. If they were now banned, people would not be allowed to carry cell phones on the planes.

:BC:/>

I know I'm way behind on the latest electronics - But, a cell phone battery is like a postage stamp compared to one that will crank an engine - hope all this works out for the weight savers. Does this mean I can throw away the crank to my model-T ?

ED in MO

[SuberAvid 617]

From the little bit of reading I have done on this it seems the LI batteries are very sensative about having all the the cells balanced. They can overcharge a cell while another is undercharged; that is the reason they require the special balancing charger every so often to rebalance the charge on all the cells. One thing that the Earth X battery has that is unique is that is has the cell monitoring and balancing circuitry built into the battery so it never requires a special charger and constantly maintains it's cell balance with the normal alternator charge or any modern AC battery charger. At least that is what their brochures say. I read other LI manufacturer literature that say they don't require a special charger but also say they should be balance charged with an LI battery charger occasionally. They do not have the balancing circuitry built into the battery from what I could tell; also, they cost about $70 to $100 less so it stands to reason for the difference. I think I will see how my buddy likes his for a while and consider switching to one this summer.

Meanwhile, my cool new solid state battery relay and LED wing tip and tail light strobes from ZTron arrived today; self contained, multiple programable flash patterns that can be synced together if desired, extremely low power use... Should light the SuberAvid up like a christmas tree!

[EDMO 1078]

Meanwhile, my cool new solid state battery relay and LED wing tip and tail light strobes from ZTron arrived today; self contained, multiple programable flash patterns that can be synced together if desired, extremely low power use... Should light the SuberAvid up like a christmas tree!

Randy,\

I would like to hear more or get more info on this new electronic whiz-bang stuff - how about part numbers and sources, photos?, and a report on how all this works when you know.

ED in MO

Edited 8 Jan 2013 by Ed In Missouri

[EDMO 1078]

HEADLINES: BOEING 787 LITHIUM BATTERY ON FIRE !!!! Are we really sure about these?

ED in MO

[SuberAvid 617]

Randy,\

I would like to hear more or get more info on this new electronic whiz-bang stuff - how about part numbers and sources, photos?, and a report on how all this works when you know.

ED in MO

Hi Ed, Here are the links:

http://earthxmotorsports.com/

[SuberAvid 617]

Hi Ed, Here are the links:

http://earthxmotorsports.com/

http://www.ztronlabs.com/

[SuberAvid 617]

Ed, another thing I used in my plane that I am really impressed with are two primary flight instruments from MGL Avionics. The Velocity Singles are made to fit a 3 1/8 hole and using two gauges, the E1-EMS and Flight-2, they give you all the info you need for VFR flight and a bunch more; plus are backlit, extremely light and relatively inexpensive.

http://www.mglavionics.com/html/velocity_singles.html

[EDMO 1078]

Ed, another thing I used in my plane that I am really impressed with are two primary flight instruments from MGL Avionics. The Velocity Singles are made to fit a 3 1/8 hole and using two gauges, the E1-EMS and Flight-2, they give you all the info you need for VFR flight and a bunch more; plus are backlit, extremely light and relatively inexpensive.

http://www.mglavionics.com/html/velocity_singles.html

Thanks Randy,

i will check out the sites you posted....will this help me read road signs too? Not much to navigate here - you either see trees, rivers, or roads....I dont like trees - too hard to land in them...cant swim either...so only thing left is IFR!

Ed