cliff

Taking care of a 2 stroke is very important and I am NOT an engine guy. My brother and a couple of other friends are the engine guys and with out them, I would stick to spamcans. I love flying the light stuff more with a 2 stroke because of the power to weight ratio but, I wouldn't own one with out the group of guys that help me with the engine stuff.

Chris, I am not as adventureous as you. I still have 2 stroke fear from my early years of flying ultralights that quit running quit often. A  4 stroke Avid or Kitfox is a different animal . If I had one I would fly it anwhere that I didn't need the extra seats or wasn't in a hurry. I use my Cessna for Traveling with friends or just the wife and her STUFF she needs to go away for a couple of days. No Kitfox could carry the load that my wife NEEDS to bring along on an overnight trip??? If I ever go light sport we will need to ship her extra stuff in advance just so there is room for her pocket book! But, She loves flying and that makes up for the extra stuff.

How can droop tips limit your view on a Cessna 188 or an ag truck? I have never flown a low wing airplane with droop tips so I am curious how they block your view. If the kitfox preformed the same before and after you changed the wing tips , why waste the money to buy new ones if there is no difference in performance. I have a set of kitfox 4 droop tips, they are paid for, Why should I spend money on different tips if there is negligable difference in the way they perform. Besides the fact that they are ugly.

 I have the same opinion as akflyer. These planes were designed for recreational flying not long cross country flying. Why do you think the wings fold, so you can drag them cross country, unload, unfold, and enjoy. I never understood the people who take a 2 stroke airplane and add long range fuel tanks, landing lights, every bell, gadget and whistle possible to a plane they will never fly at night or on long cross countries. locally, we have several grass fields that we hop in the light planes and go visit. All are with in 20 miles and that is pretty much the extent of our little groups cross country flying. When I am traveling I fly my Cessna. If I have to go to a light sport license in the future I will buy the fastest LS I can afford and use it for cross country work. If you are flying a  2 stroke Avid or Kitfox on long cross country flights, it is because you love the adventure not the speed, comfort, and reliability these planes provide. Tweaking them is fun, but they are what they are.

If a Cessna 180 worked well they would still build them. Your precedence theory doesn't hold water. I can name dozens of things that are not built or offered anymore that out perform what is available today. You have an opinion, do you have the hands on experience to tell me why droop tips  are no good?

I have owned and flown several Cessnas both with and without droop tips. I know they have a positive impact on a Cessnas slow speed handeling. My first 182 had the big Deamer droop tips and flap and aileron gap seals, It was one of the nicest flying old straight tail 182's that I have ever flown. Back when I had that 182 my father had a bone stock 180 and 10,000 hrs of flying time in dozens of Cessnas (skydiver pilot). When ever he would fly my 182 he would just rave about how nice it flew. He wouldn't put them on his 180 because he didn't like the way they looked, "didn't fit the lines of his beautiful 180". The 180 I own now has a horton stol kit with fences, small droop tips, cuffed leading edge, aileron and flap gap seals. It gets off the ground quickly and in more capable hands it will land in a very short distance. I think it would handle better with the larger droop tips but I don't think Horton offers them for this stol kit. I am a fan of the droop tips. I have a few hours in my budies Avid heavy hauler with a stock stol wing, our  model A with the droop tips lands much slower. We will probably do some side by side comparisons in the future after I get more comfortable in our Avid. His plane has the same engine and very similar airframe set up except he is a tinkerer and loves hanging crap all over the place in his plane. He even has a parking brake warning light! Ours has only the basics and is very light, but I weigh a 100lbs more than him so the side by side comparisons should be fairly accurate.

Just so we are on the same page, we have an Avid mkIV that we plan to use extended speed wing. We have a freshly overhauled 582 by Rotax Rick, C box, and a big 3 blade prop that I can't remember the make of off the top of my head, Came off a Kitfox IV. Looking for the wash out for the wing rebuild. We also need the left fuel tank. Will a Kitfox IV fuel tank work?

Thanks Ed. I was thinking it would be 1 inch or less. Does anybody else have an opinion? Brett told me that extending the speed wing with the original wash out almost canceled out the additional wing area because the wash out would increase with the extension. It made sense, so we decided we would rebuild the entire wing and build in what ever wash out we wanted. We won't get to it until spring but we would like to know for sure from some one who has done it so we build the best wing we can. We have a set of Kitfox 4 droop wing tips that we plan to use. We are looking for the best middle of the road cruise speed and stol performance. Should I start another thread for this topic?

Dynomike, thank you. It was a rewarding day to say the least. 

We rigged the airplane as described in the manual, Limited the flaps to 15degrees and it flew hands off on the first flight today after a 2 year restoration. It is easier to fly than our Kolb twinstar. Another old Avid is back in the air. Thanks all for your good advice. Now we have to get back to work  on our MK IV. We started the work on it about 4 years ago. We used the wings we built for it to replace the speed wings on our Avid A model. So now we are going to rebuild the speed wings and install the extension kit that we bought from Brett about 2 years ago. We are going to completely dissassemble the speed wings and rebuid them. Does any one have any idea what the best washout for extended speed wings should be? We also need a left speed wing fuel tank. Anybody have one for sale?

Sorry I made a mistake in my previous thread. The kitfox 3 wings are held up by Avid struts. We went through a bunch of work to fabricate wing attachment brackets so we could use the Avid struts.

Thank you all for your advice. We put the wings and flapperons on yesterday. The plane was originally a speed wing and we had a pair of Kitfox 3 wings that we were going to use on our other Mark 4. So now we have an Early Avid speedwing with Kitfox 3 wings, struts, and flapperons. How should we rig the ailerons? We only have a Mark 4 manual.

Thanks for the info. I always use flaps for take off in my Cessna 180. Our kolb does just fine without them and many other light planes that I have flown such as Champs, Luscombes, and T-craft don't have flaps. I just figured that It wouldn't much matter if they were dissabled but, your reasoning makes very good sense. I will limit them to 15% which is better than 0%. I have a know it all at the airport that tells me we will die if we fly this thing without the mixer modification, It always helps to look for a second opinion. Thanks again.

Because I didn't know you could do that. What is the proper procedure to do so? How much travel can you safely have? 

Mark.  I meant it to say that the flaps were in the up posistion not the handle.  The handle will be secured in the level flight posistion.

The early model Avid that  we are rebuilding doesn't have the flapperon mixer upgrade to stop the controls from reversing.  We were going to wire the flap handle in the up possistion to keep aileron throw at it's fullest and keep them from reversing. We have Kitfox 3 wings with droop tips and we don't plan to operate off of short strips. The Kitfox wings are a couple of feet longer than the original avid wing. We will basically be using the plane to fly local only for fun. no long cross countries. Our Kolb Twinstar doesn't have flaps and we seem to do just fine. Are the flaps really that important on an avid considering the way we are going to use the plane? Should we look into upgrading the mixing system?  If we should upgrade the mixing system, where can we get the parts now since Brent isn't answering his phone? Will wiring the flapperons in the up possistion eliminate the chance of aileron reversal? We are getting very close to being ready for taxi testing and we would like to hear your input. Thank You.
 
Ps, How do you use the spell check?

akflyer, 
 
One way to make painting the plane easier is to tape up the fuselage and spray the wings, struts, and stabelizer first. Then tape up  those parts and paint the fuselage and vertical. Spraying an entire airframe by yourself is a lot of work and it is easier to keep it from having dry spots from the paint flashing off . I always hang all the control surfaces from hooks in the ceiling of my spray booth to paint them. I also paint the cowling and doors off the plane so I can paint the jam area and the area behind the upper hinge on the fuselage that is blocked by the upper door hinge. There are a million little tricks to make the process easier. I have been painting airplanes and cars since I was a kid and I learn something new every day.

High Country, Thanks for the info. 

I use Sea to Sky eco friendly paint stripper. I buy it in 55 gal drums. It only takes about 15-20 gallons to strip an entire plane the size of your 180. I bought a stainless steel pnuematic pump to spray the stripper onto the airframe. I like the surface to be stripped to be as clean as possible so the stripper doesn't have to work through layers of dirt, oxidized paint and oil residue. I cover all plastics and areas I don't want the stripper to get into  with aluminum foil and aluminum tape. There are specific stripping foils and tapes but I find that plain old heavy duty foil and 3m aluminum duct tape (not to be confused with average vinyl  duct tape) work great. I usually cover the hanger floor with heavy construction plastic, pull the plane in, and start spraying the stripper. Use a white painters suit, goggles, rubber gloves and a resperator  when you spray the stripper. I like to spray the stripper at the end of the day and let it sit over night. When you come back in the morning a lot of the paint will have fallen off and will be laying on the plastic on the floor. At this point I scrape as much of the loose paint off with a plastic scrapper. Be very careful because the floor will get very slippery. I will scrape the mush off the wings into a bucket to keep the floor from getting so slippery. Once I finish scraping, I apply another coat to areas that need it or power wash the residue if it comes clean in one application. Water is what deactivates the stripper. I usually push the plane out side and roll up the plastic from the floor. This plastic is taken by the hazerdous waste removal people. I pull the plane back inside and power wash every sguare inch and take extra time to wash in the seams to remove all stripper. This is the most important step because any stripper that is left between layers of aluminum skin will cause corrosion in the future. I also cover the landing gear legs with foil and DA sand them to strip them. If you chemically strip them you will have a rust issue when you are done. I like to keep the entire airplane assembled for the initial stripping then remove all the control surfaces, cowling , and wing tips once it is stripped and rinsed. It is much easier to power wash the control surfaces while they are attached to the airframe. Once They are removed you will have some touch up stripping to do in the areas that the stripper couldn't get to.  I don't remove the wings most of the time unless the owner is doing a restoration and wants the plane completely epoxy primed inside. When I do remove the wings we mark where the wing attachment excentric spacers are so we can put it back as close as possible to keep the plane trimmed the way it was when it came into the shop. The next step is dent repair and then acid etch and rinse. For some one who doesn't paint professionally I would recommend using Aerothane paint from Poly Fiber to paint with. They have a great step by step paint guide and excellent tech support. I have painted a couple of planes with their paint and it lays out nice and is easy to spray. They have a complete system including Epoxy primer. Their step by step guide keeps the guess work out of painting your plane. I hope I answered some of your questions. Take your time and have patience, painting your airplane can be the most rewarding thing you can do to your airplane. You see the results of your hard work every time you open the hangar doors.

Sounds like you have your work cut out for you. You will have an awesome bird when you are finished. I am in the process of buying a private airstrip in south central PA, so I won't have time or money to do any cosmetic stuff to my 180. It needs a paint job in the worst way. I restore cars and paint airplanes for a living and am finally taking the plunge into airport ownership so I can do all my  business under one roof. All my personal toy projects will be put on hold until I get my new shop up and running. I am pushing to get this Avid finished before I get too busy with real business and it ends up sitting unfinished for another 2 years. I will need it for my daily sunset stress relief flights once the work on my hangar begins. Good luck with your project , It will be worth all the effort.

It is like Christmas when you uncover your new engine and lay eyes on it for the first time after an overhaul.  My 180 is a 1953 and still has the original engine in it, O-470a with 550 smoh.  I plan to pick up a later model engine and get it ready to hang for when this old engine becomes too maintenance hungry. So far it runs like a top. My 180 has a Horton stall kit and is very light, it is a lot of fun to fly.  I am just as excited about getting this Avid in the air as a was about finding this 180. 
  Good luck with your engine install.

I have been very busy for sometime now but, finally got back to work on the Avid. Paint work is finished, Need to cut and install new lexan for doors and windscreen, attach the wings , flaperons, rig, and a million other little things. 90% finished 90% to go.  Sold  my Cessna 206 and bought a Cessna 180, getting my tailwheel skills back up to snuff. 

Dirt rider dave,
I am in south central PA at Lazy B airport Just north of York in Dover. We have 1 flying Avid, 1 close to flying Avid, and a few other light sport aircraft on the field. We hang out there on weekends and fly to nearby Bermudian Valley Airport which has quit a bit of antique and light sport activity. There is also Shoestring airport south of us near Shrewsberry PA that has the most light sport activity in the area.  Every Fathers day there is a nice ultralight and light sport fly inn at Shrevesport north airport. The mason Dixon Flyers host the event which has been going on for around 25 years. It attracts about 100 aircraft each year and there is camping and showers and a swimming pool available right on the field. You are welcome to visit any time.
  Cliff

Bryce,
 Have done that several times in a weight shift Terratorn back in the early eighties. I don't think I would get away with it at my airport in an avid, our runway is maybe 50ft wide with lots of obsticals. Hopefully I will get the A model finished and flying by spring and get some more time in it and I will feel more comfortable. I need to cover the left wing, paint the wings, and install,  to have the A model ready to fly. I have a few  hundred hrs in taildraggers ( cessna 180, luscombe, taylorcraft, champ, kolb etc.) but my buddies avid is a hand full, or should I say feet full, in a cross wind. I just need more time in it. I don't consider myself a tailwheel expert by any means I am just a late rudder pedal input away from a ground loop like any one else.
Cliff