EDMO

I have read with great interest, the comments that builders and flyers have made about the increased weight of the EA-81 and the forward CGs, adding weight to tail to correct, etc.

The post about Harry Riblett's findings and his recommendations to extend the leading edge, and the letter from the other man who put VGs under the leading edge, now have me considering making a fiberglass extension to match the specs Harry gave. I have worked with glass lots over the past 50 years. I would probably use one lamination of carbon-fiber cloth bertween glass layers.

First, I have to finish my fuselage, and my wings are ready to cover, so if this experiment happens, it will need to be the next step. I will post photos and results if anyone interested.

Note: I already have the plastic LE from kitfox installed, so will continue to use that profile on LE extensions. Could fill them with instant foam unless someone knows why this would not be good.

All comments are welcome. I am only planning to make one set, unless there is a LOT of incentive.

Ed in MO

Ed, When you open up a picture, there should be a box in the lower right hand corner that says close with an X next to it. That will close the picture but not boot you off the page.

You should also just be able to click off the picture and it will go away too.

I will look into your forum settings on your profile and see if there is something funky checked off on it.

Thanks - Trying again - Had MSN for homepage with this new puter - Went back to Yahoo like the old puter had, so that may have been the problem - Almost certain it had nothing to do with your site - Just untrained new puter and dum ole user!

I will let you know if I still have problems.

Thanks for patience.

NOTE: just tried it , and it works as good as before.

Ed in MO

Ed. What model Kitfox do you have?

Brett at Airdale may be able to help you.

Thank you and Suberavid both for your posts. What model? NONE, but using Dean's fuselage and wing design as a base, with Denny's mods as in the Kitfox Two thru Five, With lots of strengthening - highly modified scratchbuilt clone here, but lots of the original so some parts are still useable.

Airdale uses the stratus, don't know if they ever did a Reductions - doubt it. The photos that Suberavid sent will be very helpful and nice work to look at - Now, I have to learn this new puter enough to print them. This new windows program kicks me off of the forum everytime I look at a photo and try to go back to the post. Our old system didn't do that - painfully enept - me too!!!!

Many Thanks. That exhaust system sure looks good - is that a homebrew - not Stratus for sure unless he changed designs.

My roof was raised six inches and seats raised the same amount - Got supernice boatseats from Cabelas for $35 each on sale.

Dum-ass designer (me) forgot to raise IP, Cowl, and engine to match! Getting new appointment at weld shop!

Now - Think I have this fingered out - someday will post photos when successful - I hope! Still getting a nose gear design done that I like better than the Kitfox design (which looks like it came from Van's or Glassair?/GlassStar? Anyone know the specs on that skinny tube or rod they used for a nose gear? Just nosey.

BTW: I have 14 inch FLAPS and Ailerons with seperate controls - something like a Cessna with push-pull tubes, using Steve Wittman's tube within a tube design instead of the cables that break and turn my beard white! My Horizontal attaches like a Piper or Maule - Lots stronger than KF, I think.

GOOD FLYING - Ed in MO

Just mounted my EA-81 with the Pelican mount on the firewall of my Fox. Got it WAY Low!Need to come up at least 3 inches, but 7 inches would be lots better. Only problem, with this mount, anything more than 3 inches would put bumps in my upper cowl on each side. My oil pan hangs about 5 inches below the lower firewall. My prop clearence is about minus an inch or two!!!

Was wondering if anyone could post some photos, Kitfox prefered, but maybe Avid helpful, of your mount/engine/firewall setup.

Many Thanks for any help.

Ed in MO

Brett at Airdale might have engine mounts for sale. The 670 takes the same engine mount as the 582; the blocks are identical but the 670 has to have the block bored to mount the redrive since it is a snow machine engine. Also it has single ignition but it can be converted to dual and you can use the 582 head for the dual plugs. I flew mine with single ignition.

I have a 532 mount for sale - Does it fit the 582?

Also, FWF 532 with instruments, nose tank and rad, round cowl.

ED in MO

There's a Kitfox 4 partially completed kit on Barnstormers that I came awful close to buying yesterday but I called Kitfox about firewall forward kits and became just kinda disgusted at their prices. The typical Zenith FWF kit for instance is about $2500. Kitfox wants $4295.

So. Some of you guys are doing Subaru installs, VWs and what not. Are you modifying a manufacturer's kit or pretty much gong it alone? In the old Tony Bingeles books from EAA he shows how to build a cowl for instance. I imagine with the carbon fiber pre-pregs that are out there now, that his process might be kinda fun. I'm a pretty decent welder with quite a lot of industrial experience. I resent like hell paying $700 for a dang engine mount.

So, here's a new thread to argue about. What do you guys think?

EB

Try RAM or Stratus for a Soob EA-81 mount pricing. There may be others, like Eggenfelner who make Soob mounts. Reductions is gone.

If you are determined to weld your own, I can send you photos of mine, but it was originally for a Pelican. Maybe someone with a KF can?

I modified my firewall to fit the mount. Check Barnstormers or the Kitfox forums to find one.

ED in MO

I much rather fly with a Rotax 2-stroke than any automotive conversion.

For me that's an easy decision.

Actually, the Soob is a RE-Conversion! The original EA-51 was for a plane, but the 50hp was not enough, so they put it in a car; so I've heard.

Then an experimenter put it back into a plane. (either the EA-51 or EA-71?)

The EA stands for "Experimental Aircraft", (so I've heard), but don't know why the Japs would label it in English, except Aircraft seems to be dominated by English language.

The Soob is just another version of the original "Boxer" engine, which was used by Lycoming, Continental, Franklin, and others, and then ended up in the VW and Porsche. Soob just took that engine and made it with water cooling and better engineering, and shorter stroke.

The original car bodies rusted out, but that engine just keeps on ticking. I have seen them with 3 to 400 thousand miles and still running with no major overhauls.

I believe it could have been made lighter if it had continued to be an "aircraft engine" instead of being put in a car.

There were tests done running this engine full throttle for about a week, 24 hours a day, non-stop: Much more than the 150hours at part throttle that it takes to "certify" an aircraft engine.

Sermon over! To each his own. Thankfully, there is room in the sky for differences. (Well, it is getting crowded in places!!!)

BTW: The Rotax is a "converted" snow-machine engine, (so I've heard).

Ed in MO

The question is, how do you separate the wheat from the chaff? These forum postings are all anecdotal and filled with personal agendas. Who knows what to believe? The more I hear about the 2 strokes the better I feel about them. They MUST be brought up to temp with about 4 minutes at 4500rpm (not 3000) prior to TO. If you do that, they are very reliable and pretty cheap too. I hate the sound of them but flown with cautious respect for proper procedure they are apparently fine. If you want to get an idea of how far ahead of the pack Rotax is, just look up their service bulletins. They read like Lycoming and Continental. I have not been able to find ANY such literature from Jabiru for instance or Hirth. The 582 Blue Head is one hell of low powered aircraft engine. Rotax Rick makes his 670 too. Very interesting with lots of power for takeoff and lower fuel consumption and rpm/stress for cruising. I'm slowly changing my mind. (what's left of it)

Who is "Rotax Rick"? What are the specs on the 670? Is it a 582 modified?

Thought maybe since we are dissecting engines, that the info might be useful to someone looking for an engine.

Ed in MO

ED, I found a hard copy in my files with an address at the bottom. Here is a link, pages 1-9. Hope this helps.

http://www.cfisher.com/avid/

Paul

Many thanks Paul - small print this way, but have my magnifying glass if needed.

Would sure like a report from the guy who put VGs on bottom of wing.

I would like to keep my STOL ribs, but can always use more cruise - my buddy with the 90hp J3 is just waiting to outrun my Soob!

This may have been posted in some file or whatever it is called, on the "Technical" list, but went ahead and got yours before looking again.

Enjoyed your brief video too!

Sorry to clutter the sight with my handicaps, but thankful that you and others are sharing much good info.

Ed in MO

Hi Ed,

It's a Stratus EA81 but the rads I got from RAM Performance. I think they were the only set he had made because the cost was to much ($700) and he didn't think he could market them. You could probably have a set custom made but it is definately cheaper to go with a single radiator. I just wanted to keep the radiators in the cowl rather than underneath. I think they are 5" wide x 7" tall by 2" deep. One of them has the radiator cap and overflow tube in it so you don't have to use a separate swirl bottle.

Randy

Thanks for the info Randy. I thought that all Stratus engines came with the twin AC condensers. Maybe not?

I have lots of book info on them, but was curious if Stratus sold them seperately or what the price would be. Guess I should contact them.

Donno which way I will go yet. Depends on how things get setup on mine, and of course, prices.

Ed in MO

Deleted - Got it figured out now with some help.

Please have patience with antique members.

Now, dang-it, I can't find the file that dholly or someone posted on Harry Ribblet's analysis of the Eppler High-lift ribs, and the chart and drawing for the modified rib which gives better cruise.

Anybody know where it went - seems like it was seperate from regular posts and in a place of its own?

Ed in MO

Airframes designed around the vw will work with them. (Hummel, Sonex, etc). Avids and Kitfoxes were not. Pretty simple.

As to reliability, I won't fly behind one. I know of too many of them that don't work to trust any of them.

Same way I feel about the 2 cycles - too many forced landings, IMO.

Like the John Deere Gator: That twin engine has a diaphram fuel pump which doesn't last, and it fills the crankcase with gas.

Speaking of ATVs, Been seeing the CAN-AM commercials on TV: 82 hp, 1000cc Rotax, (Twin?),I believe - will it ever be an aircraft engine??

To each; his own opinion and destiny ;<)

Ed in MO

Here is a post I made on the Kitfox board regarding that VW (non)powered 701.

This is a link to the Kitplanes article.

Aircooled VWs are pretty cool. Just not in an airplane.

Curious tho, there are lots of planes using the VW, evidently doing fine. HP varies greatly, like 65 to 120, with no apparent weight increase, except when redrive or water cooling are added.

Certainly there are lemons out there, but there are also some very reliable versions, according to what I read. My friend just put one in a Hummelbird, or some version of it. Will check with him when I can for results.

Ed in MO

I used heavy fabric on the belly and light fabric on the rest of the airplane. Everything looks like new except the belly fabric.

I could understand it doing that. However, the 1.7 is a tighter weave, and might actually be tougher. (Don't have any proof of that)

The 2.7 takes more UV and paint to finish, so is heavier than just the 1 ounce difference.

Stits recommended the 2.7 to me, but Doug or Dan Stewart said, "NO WAY!" Go figure!!!! Make your own "best guess".

Ed in MO

Thanks for the heads up Ed but after speaking with Brett we decided that this was the safest route to go. He said that the KF's get away with the .065 spars by using a big aluminum insert to reinforce it. I discussed this route with Brett but we decided that it wouldn't save any money or weight so i would rather send my money to Airdale. and as for the heaver fabric i had the lighter stuff on my skyraider and poked small holes in it when turning around at the end of my airfield and the brush there is really not that bad. I've thought of mixing up the light fabric with the heavy fabric but think its just best that I use all heavy. If i was to use light fabric for the top sides how long do you think it would last before it needed replaced again?

-Robert-

My last light fabric was 20 years old when I tore it off. It was still solid.

Course, poking holes in it might have made a difference.

Most of all is the UV blocker and paint, and keeping it clean, I guess.

We warped the root rib on the J3 with the 2.7, and had to repair and brace it.

Stewart was adimate when he advised me NOT to use it on the Kitfox.

Ed in MO

So I'm hoping to start my wings soon and am now having more ideas and can't seem to decide whats best. I currently have the speed wing kit with the .065 spars. I want to get 1050 lbs MTOW and still get reasonable performance out of it. I like the idea of keeping the wings short so i will not have to build as big of a trailer to keep it in. On the other hand i want good performance out of it at gross. I have a Rotax 532 at this time that i plan to use but eventually want to replace it with a 582. I'm shooting for around 550lbs empty weight. I have already welded in gussets for the rear spar carry through tube and will be putting plywood in the bungie truss. I've spoke with Brett and have decided to go with his 13 gal wing tanks and will have to use his STOL transition ribs for the root rib and the one just outside of the gas tanks then it will be the speed ribs out to the end. Am i safe to just go this route and get 1050 lbs (not concerned about whats "legal" just whats safe) or do i need to extend the wings. If I was to extend them would i be better off just replacing my spars with longer ones rather than extending the ones i have? Last question (for now) am I ok with the wide rib spacing for 1050 gross or should i go with the HH spacing to be safe. I want to do it right the best that i can but i also just want to fly as soon as i can. sorry for all the questions but i don't have any extra money and want to get it right the first time and there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of info about the speed wings. If anyone has construction pics of the speedwing extension that would be awesome.

-Robert-

Robert, Please read my post that I put on your "FOR SALE" post about selling your parts.

ED in MO

Needing money to continue building so I'm getting rid of the parts that I don't need. all parts are from a 1986 B Flyer and have never been used. 4 short .065 speedwing spars with white powder coat $425.00 Nose tank $75.00 Complete landing gear w mechanical brakes 6"wheels and tires $350.00 36yds of 1.8 oz fabric $350.00

-Robert-

Robert,

IMO, the .065 spars are plenty strong for 1050. There are lots of KFs 4 & 5 flying with them at 1200 to 1550. Never heard of a failure.

Go to Spruce and check the weight difference of .083, then multiply it by 30 and then by 4. Correction: Times Two!!!

Also, you do not need the extra weight of more ribs. Your performance, climb, stall, cruise, load, will suffer with the added weight with your 65 hp, and the 18 inch rib spacing is plenty. Ribs are heavy. I think you could save some money too.

Likewise, I would not go with heavier fabric. The 2.7 really tightens up and will possibly warp your wing trailing edges.

Every ounce adds up with a light plane.

Ed in MO

Sorry Ed, you do live in that world. We all do. Look to DC and what they have done to the dollar in the last 50 years. There's your answer.

Compare to what a new car costs now to back in the day of your examples. How about the cost of a house. A gallon of gas. A bag of f'n groceries!!!

Lamenting the days of $500 Cubs and $2500 Cessnas will do nothing but deepen your depression.

My "depression" is only in my writing about the cost of "Aircraft" engines.

My only problem is that I can't "deepen" my bank accounts, so I have to manage my costs.

I know that the gov is partly to blame by letting the dollar be inflated: That way, they get more $ to spend, and they spend $3 for every $1 they steal from us.

My house cost less than $10K to build, now I have to pay taxes and insurance on $200K, meaning I spend the initial price of the house every 4 years just to keep it. My income never went up 2000 percent, and retirement brought it down even more.

I still think these engines are overpriced and overrated, but that is just my opinion, and I know that others may not agree.

I have a replacement EA81 sitting in the shop that cost me $800, or I can spend $300 for an overhaul on my Reductions engine in about 4000 hours.

This post has gotton too serious - no more rotax bashing from me - getting back to enjoying other things.

Ed in MO

Great solution - I will use it too.

Sometimes, money or availability are motivators for cheap solutions: We used Kotex pads in the air box on our 18 wheelers in the old days.

If it works, use it!

Ed in MO

"Ultralight" is the term used at Rotax in the Canadian or European sense, meaning light sport class planes. Like our Avids and Kitfoxes, the ~1200# mtow class. Injecting a 582 makes no sense at all market wise compared to the 912 line.

At the approximate $24k they will price this thing at the will surely sell every one the make. It is very market competitive at that price against other aircraft engines.

$24K ?!!!!!!!! And so much maintenance? and "competing" with 1930's aircraft engines?

And a good EA81 sells for $4K to $8K.......Holy Moly! Next thing we know, Cessnas will be $150K, and AVIDS, $100K!!!!!!!!!!

What happened to the days when you could build for $2K, or buy a new 150 for $8K? or get a private certificate for $400? And thinking back farther, the Stearman I first flew cost $500 government surplus.

Way too much for po-retirees, or hamburger flippers who wanna be flyers, IMO

Sorry guys, but I don't live in that world!

ED in MO

Thanks For the info Ed, I really appreciate all the input.I would have to modify the way the k+n filter would attach to the TBI .If you have a picture of your set up I would diffently like to see it if you get a chance. This is all new to me but I am lucky to have a friend thats a pretty good mechanic but this is the first aircraft we are building. Do you have carb heat on your Kitfox and how do you like the performance of the soob in it. I will be looking at the local wreckers for a intake cover that may work better.

Thanks again

I wish mine was flying - unfortunately, I am doing my second build on the same fuselage and wings, with lots of modifications. Got wrecked after first build without ever starting the engine. (long story)

I have read and talked to flyers with the Soob - most love it because of the reliability, and costs. The insurance companies like it too.

Some say it is too heavy if you add floats - others say it won't climb with a 912, but will ourcruise it. Maybe the prop has something to do with that. Current flyers like Suberavid might give you better feedback.

I sacraficed HP for dollars, and got a deal on a Reductions 81, instead of buying a Stratus with more HP for more $.

I will just be happy to get back into the air, even if a J3 outclimbs and outruns my Foxy!

Always glad to be able to help anyone building. Let me know if you can't work something out on the airbox.

Ed in MO

So you have not convinced me to toss out my aluminum sheet and make my own instrument panel. after searching for information on fiberglass i got side tracked into the world of carbon fiber. Seems fairly easy to work with, light weight, strong, and you don't have to paint it. Here is a kit for small parts that i believe will be enough to make a small instrument panel for my B Flyer. http://www.eastbaycomposites.com/products/carbon-fiber-fabrication-kit and bigger kit here http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carbon-Fiber-Kit-cloth-epoxy-TRIPLE-SIZE-BEST-DEAL-/190347868474#vi-content

-Robert-

You may not have to paint carbon fiber - BUT, the epoxy will deteriorate in sunlight, so would advise a UV blocker and paint, just like the fabric used on the plane.

most layups with carbon fiber, and with Kevlar, are combined with glass cloth, for reasons I don't know, (maybe for economy?). I worked with fiberglass/epoxy for about 30 years, but we never used carbon fiber. There are books available about it - also see Spruce catalog.

Ed in MO

Robert,

I think you made a wise choice by going with Stewart system. The best part I experienced was that I no longer had wet glue all over my hands and other places, and no more MEK cleanup - just water.

You might consider taping some kind of filter over the window where your fresh air comes in. Don't know about your location, but down here there seems to be dust and pollen everywhere and you will see it in your paint job.

Also, for tube painting, a detail gun doesn't waste as much paint as the big gun.

The only thing I did not like about Stewart was that you had to put on so many coats, but that is a minor thing. The first try, we did not open up the paint flow on the gun enough, but later learned how to do it better, and the J3 has about the nicest paint job I have seen.

Please keep us posted on your progress and results. (notice, I didn't say "mistakes", but that is educational too.)

Ed in MO

Hi Willis,

I decided to run carb heat on mine and spent quite a bit of time setting it up. That said; in a year + of flying from 70 degrees in summer to -25 degrees in winter and some 30's to 40's degrees in rain I have yet to need it. I think the fact that the airboxes are inside the cowl make the intake air warm enough that it will rarely be needed. I have about decided to add NACA air inlets for outside air to the airboxes to get cold intake air and will probably need the carb heat then.

I used separate carb heat/air boxes; one for each carb and used a cable splitter box to run the separate cables from one push/pull knob. I added the 2.75" flanges to fit the air filters and fabricated the cable clamps to hold the cable housings at the gate lever. I built the heat muff on the exhaust pipe and used 2" scat hose from the heat muff to the carb heat/air boxes and from the boxes to the carbs. The pics are attached.

Is that a Stratus EA81? Are those the rads that Stratus supplies? How much does he charge if sold seperately? Can you measure them for me?

I still don't know if I want some like that or stick with my Rabbit rad? Probably flight testing, if I ever get there, will tell.

Thanks, Ed in MO Reductions EA81

Thanks for the reply Randy,nice job on the airboxes. My setup is a little different. I just have one Throttle body Injection carb that I just bought that sits in the center of the intake.The problem I am running into is I only have about 1 1/2" clearance from the top cowling.I probably have enough room for a k+n air filter but building an airbox would diffently be tight. I was told because the TBI is sitting on top of the intake that there should be enough heat off the

engine to prevent iceing but just looking for any advice.

Thanks Again

Don't know if it will fit your throttle body, unless it is same size as a Holly 2 brl: I read in Mick Myal's book, (I think), that a Chrysler / Dodge / Horizon? carb intake cover with the snout on it, can be cut down to about one inch or less in height, and the heat tube connected under the bottom of it. It said that the filter is in the snout? again, can't verify this until I go back and check the book.

Mine has a slightly different setup, and not sure what it is. I could check dimensions and get photos later on if really needed to help you. Don't know how you would shut off heat with the Horizon setup, unless you built a box under the cover or made a sliding valve setup. On second thought, My old machinist wheels turn slow, I worked for Chrysler from 65 til 91, and remember some of those snouts had heat riser tubes on the bottom and a flap controlled by a thermostat. Try scrounging the junk yards for one.

Hope this helps some.

Ed in MO - Reductions EA81 in Highly Modified Kitfox Clone