Pre-mix techniques

[Emory Bored 61]

Here's a question I know Joey could answer but he's out of country right now so I don't know how often he can get to the forum.  Perhaps there are others that have eschewed the injector and gone to the much safer pre-mix plan. 

 

I suppose I should say up front that I maybe should be kicked off the forum because I went and bought an unfinished Z plane 701.  I just think the folks here are going to be much smarter about 2 stroke operation than anyone else. 

 

Here's the deal:  I'm thinking of the Simonini Victor 2 Plus for my kit.  It requires pre-mix;  there is no oil injection system.  I figure I can get a couple of gas totes to make my pre-mix while home with no problem but how do you mix when you are away?  Is it safe to pour a quart in the tank and then add gas or do you add gas then pour in the oil?  Do you run the risk of having pure gas get into the fuel lines where it can't be properly lubricated doing it that way?  Am I over analyzing this?  

 

Rotax Rick also recommends pre-mix for his 670 model so I suspect there might be good reason to do it.  

 

Anyone with experience here would be welcomed to comment.  

 

Dan

[akflyer 1427]

Premix is pretty much a non event.  If you have a flue flow meter etc, you have a pretty damn good idea of how much gas your gonna take to fill it up.  Keep your ratio rite cup in the plane.  When I am premixing for my boat, I go in 12 gallon increments.  I know I gotta dump in a quart for every 12 gallons and I know pretty damn close how much gas I will take for each fill up.  I will dump it in slowly while running the pump nozzle with the other hand.  or you can dump in some oil first, then put the gas in and grab the wing tip and shake the hell out of it a few times. 

 

The other option is to mix it 5 gallons at a time and then dump the 5 gallon can into the wing.  That is a bit anal if you ask me, but some get a warm fuzzy out of it.

 

I looked at the V2 and it intrigued me, but I have not heard of enough flying around over here to make me want to run out and buy one.

 

[lv2plyguitar 172]

So Leni are you recommending a 50:1 mixture?  That would be 16 ounces per 6 gallons.

[akflyer 1427]

That would depend on the oil you are using... The oil I run, its 50:1.  The oil injecton gives you ~ 50:1 at WOT and closer to 70:1 at an idle. 

[Emory Bored 61]

Thanks for the info Leni.  There was a guy on BCP that built his 701 with the Victor 2 and he absolutely could not give a higher recommendation.  HE considered it that good. Sadly he's passed away a couple of weeks ago.  Fellow by the name of Lynn Sanderson.  Known on the forums by the handle  "Dirtstrip"  Hid opinion is what got me to thinking of one.  Unfortunately neither the US distributor nor the Canadian are reachable by their web-site phone numbers and they don't reply to e-mail either.  NOT a good recommendation!!  

Premix is pretty much a non event.  If you have a flue flow meter etc, you have a pretty damn good idea of how much gas your gonna take to fill it up.  Keep your ratio rite cup in the plane.  When I am premixing for my boat, I go in 12 gallon increments.  I know I gotta dump in a quart for every 12 gallons and I know pretty damn close how much gas I will take for each fill up.  I will dump it in slowly while running the pump nozzle with the other hand.  or you can dump in some oil first, then put the gas in and grab the wing tip and shake the hell out of it a few times. 

 

The other option is to mix it 5 gallons at a time and then dump the 5 gallon can into the wing.  That is a bit anal if you ask me, but some get a warm fuzzy out of it.

 

I looked at the V2 and it intrigued me, but I have not heard of enough flying around over here to make me want to run out and buy one.

 

Edited 5 Jun 2013 by Emory Bored

[Mendlerr 4]

Here's a question I know Joey could answer but he's out of country right now so I don't know how often he can get to the forum.  Perhaps there are others that have eschewed the injector and gone to the much safer pre-mix plan. 

 

I suppose I should say up front that I maybe should be kicked off the forum because I went and bought an unfinished Z plane 701.  I just think the folks here are going to be much smarter about 2 stroke operation than anyone else. 

 

Here's the deal:  I'm thinking of the Simonini Victor 2 Plus for my kit.  It requires pre-mix;  there is no oil injection system.  I figure I can get a couple of gas totes to make my pre-mix while home with no problem but how do you mix when you are away?  Is it safe to pour a quart in the tank and then add gas or do you add gas then pour in the oil?  Do you run the risk of having pure gas get into the fuel lines where it can't be properly lubricated doing it that way?  Am I over analyzing this?  

 

Rotax Rick also recommends pre-mix for his 670 model so I suspect there might be good reason to do it.  

 

Anyone with experience here would be welcomed to comment.  

 

Dan

I add penzoil 2-stroke air cooled oil to a 5 gallon gas tank, then add the gas.  I do not buy my fuel at the airport, we do not have MOGAS and I cannot afford 100LL so I take it 5 Gallons at a time.  In the Rotax manual it tells you 50:1, Rotax Rick and a few other engine builders recommend 40:1.

 

I recently removed my oil injection after recording what it was flowing in flight and it was only flowing 70:1 to 100:1 at WOT, the previous owner had the same results so we decided that it would be best to remove it.

 

Don't let premixed fuel sit for too long, the octane rating plummets when the oil is added and the longer it sits the worse it gets.

 

A local Rotax 2-stroke repairman who has a 582 powered AirCam (twin engine experimental) swears by Phillips 66 2-stroke oil at 45:1 ratio and 1 ounce of Marvel Mystery Oil for every 5 gallons.  He told me he has had over 1200 hours on his Rotax's using this method with only regular decarbonizing. 

 

Just shows how different peoples opinions vary

Edited 5 Jun 2013 by RMendler

[Emory Bored 61]

That's good to know about the Phillips.  I checked prices on oils and found that the damn oil can cost nearly as much as the gas it's mixed with.  There's something called Texas Tea on Amazon that goes for $99 for five gallons but they are sold out.  Has anyone used this stuff?

 

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B006EQX2CM/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_til?tag=tl0d64-20&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=B006EQX2CM&adid=1RR8QMA3S38XSE50777P&&ref-refURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.texastealubes.com%2FProducts_O5D4.html

[Russ. 7]

Pennzoil Marine XLF Outboard Two-Cycle Oil is the same formula as the discontinued recommended Pennzoil we used in the past.

Available in all Automotive supply stores.

Edited 5 Jun 2013 by Russ.

[C5Engineer 1170]

When I am at home I mix in a can and pour it in. When out on the road I put a known quanity in each tank. I keep a little notebook in the plane and write it down. With my 100:1 Amsoil I put in 1.3 oz per gallon. A simple calculation tells me how many oz's to pour in the tank. I pour it in the ratio rite (fancy measuring cup) and pour it in the wing. I do one side at a time and then shake the hell out of the strut. I used to fill one wing pour in the oil, and then do the other wing and then shake but I found in cold weather that if it sat after pouring in the oil it tended to settle to bottom of the tank. The best part about pouring oil in at the pump is the look on the Cessna drivers face when you climb up the ladder and pour OIL in your gas tank...they usually think I'm nuts!

[Emory Bored 61]

This particular Z plane has 4 10 gallon tanks.  I can see myself using two at a time for most flights.  Any sort of flight requiring 40 gallons I can get there quicker in the pickup truck,  but for those camp out situations when by myself it would be nice to get there on the outboard tanks and do the local flying on the inboards.  The only Z I've seen with the four tanks has a 4 way fuel valve!  About like flying a big airplane.  

 

Anyway,  a guy could add his oil and gas to the outboard tanks and then transfer.....but that adds the weight of a transfer pump and plumbing.  One might as well buy a four stroke if it gets that complex. 

 

My conclusion drawn from this discussion is dump it in and shake it good.  All the available fuel caddies I have seen had the hand pump on the caddy so fueling while alone is going to be rough.  

 

Dan

[Mendlerr 4]

I mentioned Amsoil, as I use this in race engines with great success and I have done testing with different 4-stroke oils.  Amsoil dominates in 4-cycle engine oil and gear oil.  I would never think of running anything other then Amsoil in my V8 race motor but this guy I talked to told me to stay away from the Amsoil 2-stroke oil.  Not sure why, might be worth looking in to

[Av8r3400 1179]

Rotax (LEAF) actually recommends Amsoil two stroke oil at 100:1 as a preferred oil if you put on a lot of hours ( like Joey does!).

Edited 5 Jun 2013 by Av8r3400

[EDMO 1078]

This particular Z plane has 4 10 gallon tanks.  I can see myself using two at a time for most flights.  Any sort of flight requiring 40 gallons I can get there quicker in the pickup truck,  but for those camp out situations when by myself it would be nice to get there on the outboard tanks and do the local flying on the inboards.  The only Z I've seen with the four tanks has a 4 way fuel valve!  About like flying a big airplane.  

 

Anyway,  a guy could add his oil and gas to the outboard tanks and then transfer.....but that adds the weight of a transfer pump and plumbing.  One might as well buy a four stroke if it gets that complex. 

 

My conclusion drawn from this discussion is dump it in and shake it good.  All the available fuel caddies I have seen had the hand pump on the caddy so fueling while alone is going to be rough.  

 

Dan

I don't think anyone on here will bitch about hearing of your Z-bird, and the V-twin. This is the first I have heard of that engine, but I am not a 2-cycle flyer.

I have often wondered about the Harley or other V-twins. They can produce 100 to 150 hp.

I bought the manual for the Z-701 or 801 - cant remember which - it is packed away in my Alaska boxes - Unfortunately, I fell into the K-fox trap before getting started on the Z.

I have a poor opinion of Heinz's designs, but it will still fly. My Ercoupe flew, but I was happy to get rid of it.

I put 4 tanks in my K-fox wings, about 8 inches space between them, and piped up a check-valve to prevent the fuel from the inside tank from flowing to the empty outside tank thru the vent line that connects them.

Also, from the finger-strainer in the outside tank I ran a line to a shut-off ball-valve and plumbed it to the inner-tank. I can reach up to the valve while on the ground and open or close this valve depending on whether I want to fill both tanks and run off of both, or just use the inner tank.

Hope this makes sense. Your 4-way should work too.

EDMO

Edited 6 Jun 2013 by Ed In Missouri

[Mendlerr 4]

I went to Virginia Highlands airport to take a wing off an RV-6 and saw an interesting fuel caddy.  Apparently they can be purchased at Northern Tool, this one had an air line fitting so you could simply attatch an air line to pressurize it, pull the handle up to your fuel tank and pull the trigger.  It's on wheels and is a good size, 20Gallons I think.

Edited 6 Jun 2013 by RMendler

[Emory Bored 61]

Wow.  I must have missed that one.  Sounds like a terrific idea. 

 

Dan

[EDMO 1078]

Back when 87 was gone, We started mixing 1 gal of 100LL with 4 gal of Mogas, and 2 ounces of Marvel Mystery Oil per gallon of mix.

We got some Stainless "Pony" Beer barrels from Anheuser-Busch, and put wood frame under it to make it sit horizontal - We welded a fill pipe to the middle which was now the top and put an valve stem in the cap of the pipe, and a shut-off valve on the end connected to a hose.

We could put about 10 gallons of mix into the 15.5 gallon barrel, and then air pressurized it. We could haul it in our truck and use the air pressure to pump the gas up into our planes. A 12-volt compressor was used to supply additional pressure if needed. Low-tech, but worked good.

EDMO

Edited 7 Jun 2013 by Ed In Missouri

[Mendlerr 4]

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200326411_200326411

 

This is it.  Although I remember him telling me he paid around $150 for it in store.

 

If you look at the different pictures of the caddy you will see a white cap on top, in the center of the white cap is 1/8 NPT threads, you can screw in and seal up a regular male air-line fitting.  Make sure it is sealed good.  Hook up an airline with lower pressure 3-7 psi I think.  Works awesome.  If you have a store locally I would recommend checking on a price with them, the website price seems awfully high

 

Would be nice if they told you that on the website, haha

[EDMO 1078]

Northern is usually higher than any other place I have found.

EDMO

[Mendlerr 4]

Yea, might want to see if anyone else carries these.  I'm sure they do.  With our new runway extension I don't think the airport will have the budget for MOGAS tanks so I'm looking for something like this also. I'm sick of carrying 5 gallons cans, I spilled premix all over myself today when I slipped a little on the ladder

[EDMO 1078]

Check out Harbor Freight - they usually have lots cheaper prices for the same things Northern sells.

EDMO

[Emory Bored 61]

They do indeed but they do not have fuel caddys, fuel caddies, gas caddies etc.  They have gas cans and gas engines.  Maybe I don't know what they call the things we're talking about. 

[Bandit 286]

I have been using Amsoil injector and  premix for a long time. LEAF is going to rebuild my engine this week. Both LEAF and myself are wondering how the engine will look on the inside. The piston and rings looked good on the exhaust side. I will let you know what LEAF finds out.

[EDMO 1078]

They do indeed but they do not have fuel caddys, fuel caddies, gas caddies etc.  They have gas cans and gas engines.  Maybe I don't know what they call the things we're talking about.

I will check on this the next time I can get to the HF store - maybe some things not online?

EDMO

[Mendlerr 4]

I have been using Amsoil injector and  premix for a long time. LEAF is going to rebuild my engine this week. Both LEAF and myself are wondering how the engine will look on the inside. The piston and rings looked good on the exhaust side. I will let you know what LEAF finds out.

That would be great, I would be very interested to see what you come up with.