Parts manufacturing for Avid + Mark IV

[Justine 0]

Hello Avidiens,

A lot of work awaits me. I am going to undertake the assembly of an avid flyer, but this one is completely devoid of parts, I only have the fuselage.

I think about how to go about it and given the quantity of parts that must be made, knowing that it is necessary to make a template each time for the mechanically welded parts, I think it would be in my interest to arrange with the owner of the welding jig located in the USA.

I would appreciate it if anyone can put me in touch with the right person who can do the job for me.

My project will not be profitable if I have to make all the jigs, buy a TIG and buy steel.

I am located in Switzerland

Many thanks

Justine

 

[1avidflyer 1983]

I'm not sure you will be able to get any help from anyone in the USA, those who have tried to revive Avid aircraft have not been very successful it seems.   If you have the skills and patience, the parts you are missing could be built.  Tailfeathers and lift struts are some of the larger steel parts that come to mind.  The wings are basicly aluminum tubes with stiffening inserts and wood ribs that are made from plywood.  I would imagine you can source the materials you will need to make up these parts in your area.  Also, perhaps you can find a wrecked Avid some where in Europe and get a jump start on a lot of the things you will need.  Sorry I can't be more encouraging, just telling it as I see it.  JImChuk

[Justine 0]

Thank you for your reply. Yes, indeed, you can speak to JImChuk about it if you meet him from time to time.

I had already built an avid flyer in 1989. A model B No. 473. I'm pretty easy with the wings and can indeed find the spars and make the ribs myself. The manufacture of the strut wing on the other hand is for me a bit difficult to do. The upper fixing the strut wing on the spar must be able to be found at Kitfox.

Remains the landing gear, the mixer, the control column and the sticks, the flap lever, the rudder pedals, The depth wheelhouse. The stabilizers that are not the most difficult to achieve. Only here, someone who does the work for me is probably more inclined to get involved for several pieces than for one or two. JImChuk ?

I can buy the tanks from Kitfox, the wheels and break from Spruce and I do the engine cowling myself and wing tip.

The friend who gives me the avid + / Mark IV Airdal fuselage has a second one that needs to be repaired, a model c (see tne picture add). He sells it cheap and it may be worth taking it too to cannibalize it. The question I ask myself is: is the horizontal stabilizer of the model C the same as on the Mark IV (same surface...). It does not have the struts wing however, not the landing gear also. I can just salvage the mixer and possibly the horizontal stabilizer, not much more.

The best.

Justine

 

[1avidflyer 1983]

Kitfox wing tanks are a little bit different from the Avid, but could be made to work.  Kitfox 4 and newer use a nearly flat bottom wing and the tank bottom is flat as well.   JImChuk

[Justine 0]

The whole point of the Avid flyer is its stol capabilities, I love this plane. I had sold mine in 1996 it seems to me and it was to finance my CPL. I'll keep the original profile and probably adapt Kitfox's twist at the time of the build process.

The forum is excellent for constructors, it is really rich in information. 

KF3 tanks in an Avid STOL/HH wing http://avidfoxflyers.com/index.php?/topic/5510-kf3-tanks-in-an-avid-stolhh-wing/#comment-48852

I'm going to pick up the fuselage this Thursday. I leave Lausanne and go to Blois-le-Breuil located in neighboring France. It promises to be folkloric when crossing the Swiss doaune with a fuselage sticking out of the van. I could take all the dimensional characteristics of the fuselage the following week to be sure of knowing which what model is it

I'm sure I can put this plane together with the support of the community. 

Justine Boivent

 

[Justine 0]

Hello

The photos I took in the craze are not detailed enough to identify this fuselage. My friend told me that it was a kit made by Airdal, that this plane once assembled had been equipped with a Jabiru engine, that it crashed and its previous owner had bought a new fuselage and had to recover all the parts on that which I recovered, in order to assemble them on the new fuselage.

The one I recovered was redreseated more or less well, it was badly repaired, because the objective had been to make a model of it to copy it only. Square tube stiffeners have been welded inside to maintain correct geometry. I have to remove them after clamping the cell on a template.

More photos to come, I have to set up the new workshop. I will work with a summary lighting in a first time and content myself with noting the dimensional characteristics of the fuselage.

[Justine 0]

If I didn't know that welded mesh steel fuselages could repair yourself quite well, I'd say this one is good for scrap. It'free !

I would like to have your opinion, the opinion of the community on a possible repair. Its relevance!

Can you also help me identify this fuselage? The structure differs from what I used to see.

All pictures are available at the following link. https://myalbum.com/album/uhYhrdtJiPib

 

[1avidflyer 1983]

Lots of things in it that don't look like an Avid.  Wonder if someone copied an Avid?  JImChuk

[Justine 0]

It's really strange indeed. The dimensions in metric that I noted can help us to make a comparison. The dimension of 1.2 meters in width at the elbows. 

However, it seems that its designer is trying to improve it. The fuselage seems to have been mechanically welded at the factory.

The lower part of the fuselage is, so to speak, preserved with some details no good. The upper part where the wings are fixed must be completely redone and it is not an easy task.

[1avidflyer 1983]

The stock Avid B, C, and MK IV were 39 1/2" wide at the elbows.  The 1.2 meters seems pretty wide.  About 47"   JImChuk

[Justine 0]

Oh God!

We're not going to complain, there's width, it's good!

I would like to be sure of the dimension between the leading edge pin and the spar pin. (The wing attaches to the fuselage)

Can you help me ?

Justine Boivent

[1avidflyer 1983]

I just looked at your pictures again.  I see it's 1.02 meters wide, not 1.2, so it's about 40" wide.  I'm not sure what you are asking for with the distance between the leading edge pin and the spar pin.  The distance from the front wing attachment point to the rear attachment point is 27 1/2" center to center.  Looks like yours was close to that.  JImChuk

[Justine 0]

I happen to make this kind of error. 1.2 for 1.02 or 1020 mm. You corrected me.

It was indeed the distance between the pins in case I find a pair of wings already built, even if it is better to build them yourself.

I went to measure again today and here is the result: https://myalbum.com/album/uhYhrdtJiPib

 

 

Edited 16 Sep 2022 by Justine

[1avidflyer 1983]

Quite the project.  Welds and fitting leave a lot to be desired for sure.  I don't think this fuselage came out of the Avid factory jig.  

Edited 16 Sep 2022 by 1avidflyer

[Justine 0]

It is indeed possible that the fuselage has another origin than the Avid/Airdal factory.
Regardless, it's well done. The mediocre quality of the welds came after a repair, following the crash (Jabiru engine failure).

In reality, the goal had not been to repair it, but to straighten it in a summary way to make a copy, the friend told me. This is the reason why they did not take any care with the welds. I don't know yet if the fuselage is salvageable. It must be in principle, I want to believe.

They had to heat certain welding nodes with a blowtorch and also for to straighten certain parts of the fuselage. You can clearly see the burnt parts. The result however is that they annealed all those hot spots and an expert would tell me that the metal has lost its fundamental characteristics, besides corrosion. It is possible that it is necessary to seek the good quality of the tube far enough to properly anchor the upper part of the cockpit, and the wing attachments which support all the load. All the rest of the fuselage is intact so to speak and that's already good, 2/3.

I would say that an expert should give me his opinion. I also have the option of having the fuselage and all the welds x-rayed, but it is better to do it once the repair has already been carried out in a pinch. A new fuselage costs 5000 Dollars/Euros/Francs, except that it is no longer manufactured. It might be worth getting it back if the repair isn't too expensive. I can prepare the work, prepare the tubes in metric dimensions, but I will not weld them, I do not have the skills, even if I am tempted to do so.

I  plan to expected to make the same adaptations as Randy.g.tyler, except for the lengthening of the fuselage. I wanted to write to him, but no answer. The photos on the post are very explicit and I will be inspired by them, I will do the same thing.

If I can find a few used parts, (Mixer, control column, Mark IV tail, strut), I'll probably buy them to save time.

Avid Stretch (Mini Plus) - Fat Avids, Avid Plus and Airdale - AvidFoxFlyers Forums

For the landing gear, I'm thinking of this one http://www.ulmag.fr/index.php?lire=mag2/salons_aff.php&art=blois_2016&p=4&expo=019

 

[Justine 0]

I just emailed mmendick. I hope he will answer me

[Justine 0]

Buddy from Just aircraft who I had also contacted for parts compatibility, just got back to me in 24 hours. I appreciate their professionalism.

The Highlander's lift strut are compatible with the Mark IV. It was, for me, the biggest difficulty since all the other parts are easier to make, but if I can refrain from having to have them made by a locksmith, I like it as much, even if I prepare the work.

Just aircraft can't produce the struts at the moment, because first of all they have to catch up on the delivery delays of their kits, they have to get a lot of orders by the way, one can imagine it and that's so much better for them.

Marc Mendik hasn't responded yet and I can understand that. I'm counting on you to say a word to him on occasion. There's no rush, I'm insulating and setting up the workshop for the winters.

There would still be a lot of work for an Avid kit maker. The demand is colossal.

[SuberAvid 617]

Hi Justine,

Sorry for being offline for so long.  I retired recently so all of a sudden I seem to have gotten much busier.  I will try to monitor and answer any questions I can.  Jim Chuck s a great knowledgeable resource so his help, i'm sure, has been great.

Randy

[flywise 169]

Hey Justine,

great project..

I also am from switzerland/geneva and fled the country because of the overly burdensome and expensive FOCA and EASA. I now live in Canada (close to vancouver) and love the freedom I have with my avid Catalina. If you decide to visit Canada one day please come and visit me for some local flying and fun

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AvMw5i-09AkLmyLHNPdIaLSnwTWe

 

Salutations, Laurent

 

Edited 30 Sep 2022 by flywise

[Justine 0]

Hi Justine,

Sorry for being offline for so long.  I retired recently so all of a sudden I seem to have gotten much busier.  I will try to monitor and answer any questions I can.  Jim Chuck s a great knowledgeable resource so his help, i'm sure, has been great.

Randy

 

Hello Randy,

I really appreciate your intervention, I immediately feel more at ease. I was able to observe the changes you made to your Avid. You have solved, which in my opinion is the main drawback of this small plane. It was the luggage area behind the seat that was too small and difficult to access. On the other hand, I don't have the centering diagram with me and I don't really know the rear limit, but you shouldn't be able to board more than 34 km behind the seats, I think.

I want to make the same modifications on the Avid + Airdal that I recovered, except for the lengthening of the fuselage. As I will have to make the wings, I will add a rib instead of the wing tip with a kind of winglet. I will gain not quite 2 meter wingspan. I had already piloted a fox kit in the 90s whose wings had been lengthened to make it fit into a microlight. Hello roll rate! To do this, there are fears near the ground if the engine PTU is a engine failur and low altitude.

I am looking for an experienced welder who practices on site, in the surrounding area. I will prepare a jig as you did to clamp the cell before cutting certain tubes. 

I will prepare all the tubes and point them. the experienced welder will make the bead.
If you have plans or technical details such as the reference for teleflex cables, I am of course interested. this was also the subject of my call.

I'm redoing the workshop at the moment, it keeps me busy. I still left myself time before to do on the plane.

Jim chuk is an encyclopedia for the Avid flyer. So to speak, he is not infallible either, but he is a great help and I thank him just like thank you for answering me.

 

Hi Justine,

Désolé d'avoir été hors ligne pendant si longtemps. J'ai pris ma retraite récemment, alors tout d'un coup, je semble être devenu beaucoup plus occupé. Je vais essayer de surveiller et de répondre à toutes les questions que je peux. Jim Chuck est une excellente ressource bien informée, donc son aide, j'en suis sûr, a été formidable.

Excité

[Justine 0]

Hey Justine,

super projet..

Je viens également de Suisse/Genève et j'ai fui le pays à cause de l'OFAC et de l'AESA trop lourdes et coûteuses. Je vis maintenant au Canada (près de Vancouver) et j'aime la liberté que j'ai avec ma passionnée Catalina. Si vous décidez de visiter le Canada un jour, venez me rendre visite pour un vol local et amusant

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AvMw5i-09AkLmyLHNPdIaLSnwTWe

 

Salutations, Laurent

 

 

A Katalina in Canada is paradise!

I share your opinion for OFAC in any case. I wonder about the relevance of declaring it in Switzerland. Rather France, possibly. In the case of a ULM registration, but it is not the one I prefer, it does not concern the EASA. It is still the national legislations which are in force for the ultra light. That being the case, I will probably register it as an airplane because I didn't spend a fortune passing my PPL, my CPL /IR to do ULM. (MTWO and flight plan to cross borders.)

You know, by that, the OFAC delegated the monitoring of the construction to amateur builders (EAS). I met a very small fraction of these amateur builders at a monthly dinner. I noted that some of them and the most important were in the sanction, without even knowing me, as soon as I will started to tell them that parts were missing and that I first tried to find some used before considering making them myself. I know the Avid flyer pretty well, I'm very comfortable with this little plane, I had also to do instruct at Montardoise farmer. Fuselages under construction, I've seen tons of them. my first avid that i have build since is number 473 (1989).

"Vancouvert", the English-speaking provinces are known to be 100% pro aviation. This is where you have to be to fly.

you never know what life has in store for us, my trip to Canada is unlikely however, with the great war coming on top of that. Thank you for your invitation, I will open the link you sent me and I wish you a good flight in your paradise.

Cordialement, Justine

PS : Verry nice pictures !

Edited 30 Sep 2022 by Justine

[SuberAvid 617]

Hi Justine,

The pictures you show of the plane hanging and on top of the car is not an Airdale Avid +, but looks like an Avid MK IV that someone has done some modifications to.  You can see from the attached pictures of my Avid + that the fuselage is longer (18") than the Avid MK IV and has a lot larger tail with a balanced rudder.  I would suggest that you modify your fuselage in the same way I am modifying Avid MK IV fuselage into what I call the Avid Mini +.   I describe the mods in the Avid Mini + thread on this forum. 

I attached a picture of label for a manufacturer of the push/pull cables.  Obviously I would not tell them you will be using them on an airplane. 

Note that besides stretching the fuselage it required removal of the tubing structure behind the seat and adding a truss behind the seat like is in the front of the seat, additional trussing at the shoulders and under the turtle deck area, and adding seat structure at the seat bottoms to raise them and install the mixer control under pilot seat.  You should be able to see it on the pictures in that thread. 

I know we have a little bit of a language barrier so if what I describe does not make sense, just let me know and I will try to describe it differently.

You are correct about the modifications making the plane much more useable for cargo and it also allows moving the seats back to get more legroom.  Best of luck on the project. I am sure you will enjoy it and I will try to help wherever I can.

Randy

[Justine 0]

Hi Randy,

I understood everything well, as the photos available on the Avid mini+ thread are sufficiently explicit. I've already checked the thread and printed everything out in case we get a cut from the internet.

I was planning to reinforce the frame at the elbows after having clamped the cell on a jig and before cutting the tubes.

Your recommendation for lengthening the fuselage, in addition to better road stability, is it essential for a Rotax 912, in your opinion?

Do you have some photographic details of the modifications on the rear of the fuselage for the damped tail wheel?

So my fuselage is a Mark IV. That's what I wanted anyway. Look at this dimension however (width at the shoulders) = 1020 mm / 40.15 Inches

I take advantage of having you on the file to ask you about the distance between the hole is 27'' 1/2 (69.85 cm) which is also the distance between the two wing spars in tube d 'aluminum. This dimension is slightly lower by 2 mm (69.60) on this fuselage. Is a serious problem in your opinion? Should we try to bring it back to the norm?

At the same time, I publish photos of all the points on the fuselage that need to be reviewed.

Bien à vous,

Justine

PS:I sent a message to cable craft UK with 183-VTT-5-78

 

 

Edited 5 Oct 2022 by Justine

[ChrisBolkan 130]

Hi Justine,

I fly a Fat Avid which is essentially a widened and lengthened MKIV. I have two friends with MKIV's, one extended and one not extended. All of our planes have 912's.

My friend with the extended MKIV flies his with no additional weight in the tail, but he is at the forward CG limit. This works fine for him especially when he loads the plane up for camping, He has created nooks and crannies every where behind the seats and under the baggage to carry things and he can load it up without going too far aft. He does not have weight in the tail. I think his plane would benefit from some weight in the tail when he is not loaded up for camping but he has nowhere to easily attach the weight way in the back so he carries some tools and things under the baggage compartment which helps a bit.

My other friend who has a 912 in his un-extended MKIV can fly his plane without weight in the tail, but the CG is really far forward AND he has his battery mounted in the very back of the tail. This helps bring the CG back a bit. There is virtually no way for him to bring the CG too far back with baggage. His plane is too far forward IMHO.

On my Fat Avid I carry 10LB in the tail allof the time, and I can still go camping and not be too far aft without removing the weight, unless I am REALLY loading the plane up, and I have a MUCH larger and open baggage area then either of the MKIVs.

So from my experience you really want to do the stretch if you are installing a heavier engine than the 582. My original MKV was tricycle gear and was right at the forward limit with just the 582.

One note: All of the planes I am talking about are tricycle gear. Tailwheel setup will mitigate the forward CG somewhat, but I don't think enough to make you completely happy unless you stretch the plane. 

These are just my experiences. Others may have different experiences.

[ChrisBolkan 130]

I have two different control cable lengths on my Fat Avid. here is a photo of the part numbers. I used different lengths because the mixer is under the pilot seat so the distance is different to each flaperon. I suppose there might be merit to using equal length cables so play is identical, but I find the cable system has tons of play anyway, so it is a decision you will have to make I guess. I am just pointing it if you haven't thought about it yet.