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109JB got another wrecked Kitfox

53 posts in this topic

Posted

Yes you need to install a richer setup. The hacman by nature slightly leans from standard, even when off. This amount varies with the size of the reference port.

  I will have to hunt out the data from my last install which may take a few days.

The needles definatly need changing from 11g2 to 11k2 to eliminate a lean spot just off mid range. These are 503 tc needles.

A hacman type device is one of the best mods that can be done to a 582 but vigilance is required at all times and especially at part throttle decent 

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Posted

Thanks but having been examining  the system I had thoughts. If putting the reference port in the air cleaner it makes sense that the jet size will need to go up,  but if the port is not in the air cleaner then the bowl pressure would just be the same as stock if the valve is closed. It would seem in this case you could keep stock jets. I like the idea of taking the pressure under cowl instead of in the air cleaner because a tube failure or with the valve closed puts it in a stock condition. I believe the commercial hacman uses this as the firewall mounted manifold is shown in the online instructions with a little air filter and no connection to the air cleaner. Thoughts?

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Posted

To my memory the commercial hacman did start out taking the "reference" air from inside the carb air filter and at some more recent point has went away from that to using an independent filtered port . The hacman I made for my own use some time ago was done with the independent filtered port and increased main jet size because it is a model C avid with the carb intakes walled off from the rest of the engine and exposed to a more pressurized atmospheric condition. 

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Posted

I should keep my nose out of this, never having run a hacman,  but it seems to me that if you can only adjust to a leaner condition, then it makes sense to start off a bit on the rich side.  JImChuk

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Posted

I should keep my nose out of this, never having run a hacman,  but it seems to me that if you can only adjust to a leaner condition, then it makes sense to start off a bit on the rich side.  JImChuk

yes, but I find the stock jetting is already a little rich in most every case. 

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Posted

Yes you need to install a richer setup. The hacman by nature slightly leans from standard, even when off. This amount varies with the size of the reference port.

  I will have to hunt out the data from my last install which may take a few days.

The needles definatly need changing from 11g2 to 11k2 to eliminate a lean spot just off mid range. These are 503 tc needles.

A hacman type device is one of the best mods that can be done to a 582 but vigilance is required at all times and especially at part throttle decent 

Been a bit but thank you for this post. I ordered the 11k2 needles and will install before flying. 

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Posted

I got the wings back on and I'm just waiting for carb jets and needles before it goes to the airport for flight.

 

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Posted

I have a question on needles. My shipment arrived from LEAF today and when I pulled out the existing needles, the engine had 15K2 needles installed. So looking at the chart, these are the stock needles if using an intake silencer, which this engine is not equipped with. The Stock needles according to the chart when not using an intake silencer are 11G2. The new needles i got today are 11K2. I also got 170 main jets. So to summarize I now have 170 main jets and 11K2 needles.  

Here is where I need help with initial setting. In Dusty's post, he said to use the 11K2 from the 503 dual carb engine. In the carb jetting chart it shows putting the clip in the second grove from the top for the 503 and the stock position on the 582 is in the third groove. For those running these needles, which clip position are you using? Winter? Summer? Main jet make a difference?

Thanks,

John Brannen

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Posted

Weather finally cooperated in northern Illinois and I got this one back in the air. Was a short flight, only about 40 minutes, but it flew beautifully. I only have a few squawks to work out:

1. Gotta plug the big air leak from around the landing gear bungees

2. Rudder and brake pedals need anti-skid tape on them.

3.  Brake pedal angle needs adjusting

4. Engine too rich at idle. Need smaller idle jets

5. EGT during climb was a bit high, so need to check float levels and may need next size larger main jets or raise needle one clip position. 

On #4 and #5 I'd like to get opinions of the 582 experts here.  Here is my carb setup right now:

170 main jets, 55 idle jets, 11K2 needles with the clip second from top.

First thing I will do is check the float bowl fuel level as one cylinder seemed a tad hotter than the other. On the idle, at about 2200 rpm the engine bucks pretty good but if I open the valve on my home-brew hackman it smooths right out.  So I know it need smaller idle jets, but do I go to 50 or 45 or one guy I talked to said he runs 40 idle jets in his. Any opinions on those?  On the mains, if the float levels are good I think I will try just raising the needle one notch and see how that does.

BTW, to keep EGT in check I throttled back a bit on climb out but it was getting 6250 during the climb. Didn't want to push it up in level flight because of the EGT so I'm not sure what it would have done there. Does the 6250 climb number seem about right? it was about a 70 mph climb.

Thanks everyone. This is a great group.

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Posted

I run a HacMan.  I increased the main jets to 180 which seems to work well.  I also run a 40 idle jet, but that's because I have a clutch so there's practically no load on the engine while idling.  You shouldn't have to throttle back on climb to maintain the EGT's.  Usually EGT's are only a problem if the prop unloads while descending or if you've got a lot of thermal activity.  I still have to avoid the mid-range RPMs (4500 is a killer) as EGT's go way up.

You might try climbing out at 65 and see how it goes (if the climb angle isn't too high).

 

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Posted

I run a HacMan.  I increased the main jets to 180 which seems to work well.  I also run a 40 idle jet, but that's because I have a clutch so there's practically no load on the engine while idling.  You shouldn't have to throttle back on climb to maintain the EGT's.  Usually EGT's are only a problem if the prop unloads while descending or if you've got a lot of thermal activity.  I still have to avoid the mid-range RPMs (4500 is a killer) as EGT's go way up.

You might try climbing out at 65 and see how it goes (if the climb angle isn't too high).

 

I think the high egt during climb, and really all phases can be taken care of with raising the needles. I can't remember exactly but I think they are currently in the 2nd notch from the top. Next time I'm out there I will change those.

On the idle jet, the guy who wound up with my other Kitfox spent a lot of time to get it running really nice. It ran well enough when I got it but he made it perfect. To tell the truth, I never even looked at the jets on that one as the owner prior to me did well enough in that regard. The guy who bought from me settled on using 40 idle jets in summer and 45 in winter. That airplane had no clutch and a 3 blade warp drive. Mine now also has no clutch, although I seriously think about putting one in my cart every time I'm on the LEAF website. It also has a 3 blade wood GSC prop.

Thanks for the help. Would like to talk to you sometime about the clutch and how you like it.

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Posted

So I'm just going on memory here but I had a conversation with a rotax tech named Bob Robertson a long  while back and If I'm remembering it accurately at full throttle the needle is no longer having any influence on the fuel mixture only the main jet is. With regards to idle I just let the hacman make the idle mixture work. If you land somewhere a thousand feet lower elevation after dialing it in with jet changes it will possibly be a bit leaner than ideal. 

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Posted

Mike Stratman who wrote the proper care and feeding of rotax engines articles said that idle jet controlled idle mixture, needle jet and jet needle controlled midrange, and main jet controlled full throttle.  Some over lap ofcourse depending on rpm.  Here is the article that explains how to tune the Bing carb.   If the link doesn't go right to the correct article, look for part 10 tuning the bing carb,   JImChuk

Rotax Tech Articles: The Proper Care And Feeding Of The Rotax Motor | California Power Systems (cps-parts.com)

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Posted

Thanks guys.  I've seen the linked document before. I absolutely know that it needs a smaller idle jet, just figuring what size at $60 per set gets pricey and wanted to see what others have found. I did wind up ordering 40s and 45s for the idle circuit. Will start with the 45s first. If I lean the DIY Hackman system at idle it smoothes out nicely but is just way too rich. IMO, there is rich but still runs smooth, and so rich that it stumbles. I want to get it from the way too rich stumbling spot to slightly rich but still smooth at idle.

As far as going to a lower altitude or it leaning from here, I'm at 560 ft field elevation right now, so I doubt I'll be much lower than that ever, and we are coming into the coldest months around here, so my jetting now will be richest case.

On the upper end of power settings EGTs are pretty close across the mid and upper rpm range, but a touch lower in mid-range, at least from what I could see on that short flight. From what I understand this is not the usual as the stock jetting and needle is leaner in mid range, but I have the 11K2 needle Dusty recommended. Perhaps this is why a little lower throttle brought EGT down just a touch. I think it needs to be just a touch richer across the board or maybe I need a touch more prop pitch. Will try raising the needle one notch first and if the top end is still too hot I may crank in a touch more pitch. Until I can get a full throttle level flight run I won't know conclusively about prop pitch. According to the jetting chart the 170s in there should be plenty for conditions we have right now. Should actually be good at my elevation to about -4 degF

Thanks for the help.

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Posted

Been thinking more about this and since the EGTs from mid-range through top end were all a bit higher than I would like, not much but a little, I think I will re-pitch a little coarser first. With the cool weather and flying solo right now I can do that without performance worries and see what level flight rpm comes out to. Is there a rule of thumb on how much to change pitch to affect EGT?

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Posted

So I've been trying to get the engine running right and stupid me it is going to be near impossible getting it to run correctly with this situation.

 

Carb floats.jpg

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Posted

Stinking floats..... a, I mean sinking floats.   You would think in this day and age, they could come up with a float that didn't cost $100 and it still sinks.  The two floats together should weigh a maximum of 7 grams.  I've seen some as low a 2.8 grams each.  That sinking float will for sure richen up your mixtures.   JImChuk

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Posted

Yeah. Fortunately I have a second set of carbs for my 912 and the Bing 64 floats and Bing 54 floats are the same according to the parts list.

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Posted (edited)

Lots of service bulletins over the years on those “stinking” floats.  I never did get reimbursed for the last two sets, jumped thru all the hoops and nothing CPS doesn’t even respond.  I fixed that problem for good and installed EFI.  Not cheap but I sure would do it again.

Headed down to Mississippi the end of the month for the Heavy Maintenance class for the 912, then over to Georgia to pickup a KF5 with the new owner.  Should be quite the trip.  Bad news is we just now have enough snow for XC skiing, oh well.

Edited by wypaul

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Posted

Here is the bing carb website, for motorcycle parts.  A tech guy there told me once that they were really the same parts as the airplane parts.  I did run their black floats in one set of my 912 carbs with no issues.  They show a set of white floats on the right side of this page for $33.20.  Not saying that they are the same, but my Jabiru type 94 carb uses a float that looks just like this.  22 years old and still good.  I also have a real old never used type 54 582 carb, and it has this same style float in it.  It would be interesting to see if the white ones on this page are a good replacement for the black sinkers....  JImChuk

Bing Type 84 Carburetor - BING AGENCY INTERNATIONALSOLE DISTRIBUTORFOR BING CARBURETORS AND THROTTLE BODIES IN THE US, CANADA,SOUTH AMERICA AND AUSTRALIA

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Posted

Well, the 912 carb floats worked fine in the 582. I got a chance to fly it a little yesterday and it ran fantastic. Only up about 45 minutes because of weather but it was enough that I think a little more prop pitch and all will be dialed in.

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Posted

Update:

The floats from my spare 912 carbs worked great. Was still seeing high EGT n the old Westach dual EGT gauge, but everything else said I should be OK. I decided to buy a new digital dual EGT from GlowShift. Got it installed today and was able to fly for about 1.5 hours. The EGTs were fine. Pretty much any level or climb RPM and I was seeing about 1100 deg F, about 1150 in a slight descent.  I was seeing 1300 at times with the old gauge.

Brings up a question though. With my DIY hacman, I can get about 50 deg F rise on EGT. Seems like that is a little weak.  I can change my orifice for one with a smaller hole but before I did that I wanted to see what others get.

Thanks,

John B

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Posted

The airplane is running great now and I got a chance to make a short flight today and made a couple videos. Both are actually the same portion of today's flight but one is the 360 degree version that you can pan around in. The 360 video is still processing in youtube but should pop up soon.

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Posted

Got some pictures of the airplane in the sunshine yesterday.

 

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Posted

Some pictures while flying today.

 

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