Getting started/setup for Welding?

[Willja67 144]

I've been drawn to wood working most of my life and have shied away from welding but the deeper I get into my project the more I want to learn it. I'm going over to the local tech college tonight after work to look at their welding program. 

I'm looking for advice on a decent budget welder that will work for 80-90% of the welding that would need to be done on our little birds.  I know very little about welding but from what little I know I'm guessing that a mig welder might fit that requirement? The gentleman that's already done quite  a bit of welding on my plane uses TIG and has told me that's quite a bit harder than Mig. I'm guessing more expensive as well.

So whatever advice you guys have on getting started I would appreciate.

Edited 13 Jan 2020 by Willja67

[Buckchop 479]

Ive been useing a Lincon SP-170T, with gas, 220v, good welder, also have a big floor model Miller 250 with steel and aluminum wire feed, ive been welding steel for yrs, only welded aluminum a few times but if it as much fun as steel i cant wait. Never done any TIG. 

Just make sure u stay away from harbor freight for a welder, ( i did that in Ojai Cali, it worked for awhile and when it went titsup there where no parts avaliable, so had to buy another welder and i left it with the owner of the house in Ojai i did the rought iron work for only good thing about that trip was the awesome tan the alaskan had!!!) and when at the welding store, remember a little extra $ thrown in the pile will b benificial later on, once u start welding up stuff ull find more welding projects than u can handle, and b making up projects to boot. id think that the 220v welders have a better duty cycle than a 110v, but im also not up on the new stuff, mine r all still old school dials. 

Edited 13 Jan 2020 by Buckchop

[Willja67 144]

Ive been useing a Lincon SP-170T, with gas, 220v, good welder, also have a big floor model Miller 250 with steel and aluminum wire feed, ive been welding steel for yrs, only welded aluminum a few times but if it as much fun as steel i cant wait. Never done any TIG. 

Just make sure u stay away from harbor freight for a welder, ( i did that in Ojai Cali, it worked for awhile and when it went titsup there where no parts avaliable, so had to buy another welder and i left it with the owner of the house in Ojai i did the rought iron work for only good thing about that trip was the awesome tan the alaskan had!!!) and when at the welding store, remember a little extra $ thrown in the pile will b benificial later on, once u start welding up stuff ull find more welding projects than u can handle, and b making up projects to boot. id think that the 220v welders have a better duty cycle than a 110v, but im also not up on the new stuff, mine r all still old school dials. 

I don't think Ive got any 220 outlets at my house(other than the dryer and stove). So it sounds like that's going to limit me somewhat.

Edited 13 Jan 2020 by Willja67

[marksires 484]

I have a Hobart Mig and a Hobart Tig.  Hobart is made by Miller, and the ones that look identical are identical except for the color and the price tag.

For our birds you need Tig, Mig is not approved for aircraft unless you are a manufacturer and have an approved process.  Yes, I know it's experimental so that doesn't really apply, but the rule exists for a reason, and a beginning welder should respect it.

Tig will need a bottle of argon, so be sure to price getting a cylinder also - some places you have to buy and exchange, some places you have to lease, just depends on your supplier.

You could also use gas welding.  More expensive in the long run, but cheaper to start out.  It shouldn't cost much to get a 30amp 220 outlet put in your workshop/garage.  The 110v welders aren't worth the amount they cost in my experience.

I did one of the EAA Tig welding seminars, it was a good introduction.  I also did a continuing education class at my local community college.  Only thing I learned in the class was that more schooling wasn't going to help, the only thing that would make me better was practice, which I haven't done of course :-)

Mark

 

[Allen Sutphin 705]

I have been welding 4130 with torches for many years and now considering a TIG. It may take more time to learn, but worth it in the end, On a budget, check out Eastwood welders, reasonably priced and good support. I'll still keep my torches, though. Old habits die hard.

[akflyer 1427]

The issue with mig is that its easy to get cold lap if you don't know what your doing.  The weld might look OK, but its really just laying on top of the steel and not melted in.  What ever you do, you will want to get a ton of scrap and PRACTICE until you think you have it down, then practice some more.  Getting the machine set up and dialed in is key.  Start off on thicker stuff, like 1/8" and weld, weld weld.  Once you are happy with that, start going to thinner materials.  Your first weld on .028" think material should not be on the tubes of your plane.

Once you have a feel for welding on plate, then get some tubes and start practicing on them.  Remember, the smaller the tube the more difficult to weld correctly as the angles and travel around the tube happens so fast.  Even certified pipe welders who have been welding for decades still have to pass a small diameter test due to this (qualified to weld the diameters of the test coupon and up).

For welding thin materials the pulse mig is the cats ass, but now your spending a lot more money.  

Mig is much easier to learn as you just point and pull the trigger.  TIG your manipulating both hands and a foot and you have to get them all talking to each other at the same time.  If you chew bubble gum, then you just added a 4th dimension.  However, TIG, once learned, is a better easier process for welding on the small diameter tubing.

Once again, it will be about $$ spent.  What ever leads and torch come with the machine will work, but chances are, they will suck.  Drop some more coin on a quality torch and lead, lots of tungsten as you will be sharpening much more than you will be welding for quite awhile.  I love the CK welding super flex hoses and the flex head torches.  Once you have used a good TIG rig, you will smash the ones that came with your machine with a hammer and cures everyone in the manufactures family for selling such an unwieldy POS.  

Everlast seems to be making some good machines that don't break the bank (comparatively speaking).  What ever you do, get a machine that has a good remote foot pedal and has a HF start.  Scratch starts are OK for heavy wall pipe and plate but suck for the thin wall that we deal with.

If money is an object, then chances are you are money ahead having a good local welder to your work.  If you have money burning a hole in your pocket and you have a lot of spare time then get set up to learn.  YouTube is your friend these days and you can find a plethora of welding videos and tutorials that will help you GREATLY!  If you are buddies with a good welder that can come over and help set up YOUR rig and give you pointers, looking over your shoulder and slapping you in the head then you have a huge leg up on the learning curve.  If you have no clue what your doing wrong, or what is causing an issue, then you can't really learn and chances are you will throw up your hands in disgust and will be listing your shit on Craigslist in a matter of days.

At any rate, welding is not voodoo magic, its lessons learned from repetition and anyone can learn it.  Some are better than others.  if you don't have a steady hand, don't bother buying a TIG set up as you will hate life.  

 

[Avid Bart 39]

I bought an AHP AlphaTig 200X last year and have had very good luck with it so far. I hate buying Chinese, but a comparable Miller or Lincoln would have cost 5x more and out of my price range.

If you go the Tig route, I would recommend one that is capable of AC and DC. That way you can weld aluminum and any other weldable metal.

Then take some time and watch Jody's videos on his weldingtipsandtricks YouTube channel. He does a great job explaining the settings and proper techniques.

[TJay 1041]

I'm No Expert but if you are just starting out buy a mig. For small tubing 140 amps to 180 amps is more than enough. Like everybody else says practice alot.

I like the tig the best its such a quiet and clean welding process but has a learning curve. Outside corners and butt joints are so easy but inside corners are tough for me sometimes the tube disappears before I even get a puddle started. I don't have that with a mig.

 

[CoClimber 33]

I have very little welding experience but I welded up a bunch of expansion chambers a few years ago out of 20 gauge steel using a tig welder where I work.  Spent half the time filling in the holes I created.  When I started working on my Kitfox, I looked into using a torch welder I had at home. I didn't want to have to haul the fuselage in to work so wanted to get the gas welder going.  I soon learned that the stock tip was way too big for our thin wall 4130 steel.  I bought a Smith AW1A torch handle and absolutely love it.  I personally find it much easier to use than a tig. Heat control is just a matter of moving the torch further or closer to the weld.  The tig is much brighter, making it hard for me to see both the puddle and the adjacent seam.  Regardless of what you choose, practice a bunch.  Cut the welds in half to examine the penetration, and break a bunch of them.  The weld itself should never break.

[BryceKat 125]

Read Bud Davidson’s shop talk in Sport Aviation over the last 2 months. I have a Meco Midget torch, love it. Have used tig’s and mig’s Which are easy and make pretty welds. They can’t preheat the whole assembly before welding and post heat the assembly to relieve the stress. MiG and Tig are the food equivalent to microwave burrito, oxy/Acc is Grandma’s home cookin’  

[marcusofcotton 52]

X2 with the last two posts!

[akflyer 1427]

Read Bud Davidson’s shop talk in Sport Aviation over the last 2 months. I have a Meco Midget torch, love it. Have used tig’s and mig’s Which are easy and make pretty welds. They can’t preheat the whole assembly before welding and post heat the assembly to relieve the stress. MiG and Tig are the food equivalent to microwave burrito, oxy/Acc is Grandma’s home cookin’  

pre and post heat can be taken care of with a propane torch or weed burner if its a large cluster.  Proper filler metal and welding procedure take care of any cracking issue.  I 100% agree that if you are not competent with other techniques, oxy acetylene is the go to in order to get the job done.

[Buckchop 479]

U can makeup a 220v system in ur garage if u have to the easy way if u cant or dont want to plug into ur 220v dryer plug. But if u do ull need to know if the plug is 30A (one terminal is bent 90*). or if its a 50A. (one terminal is straight)

Just use two different 110v plugs, with HEAVY wire when i say different i mean ones that r on different house circuts/breakers. 

2 each 110/115v makes 220/240v

2 each 220/240v makes 440/480v

[marksires 484]

That only works if the two circuits are on different 'legs' of the incoming service.  Household single phase breaker boxes are designed so that adjacent circuit breakers are on different legs, that's why a 220v breaker covers two positions.  Hooking up to two breakers that are on the same leg will still just result in 110v.  You can't make 440/480v from a household single phase service, I don't care how many breakers you connect.  440/480v generally requires 3 phase commercial service, and that voltage is on each of the 3 legs.

USA A/C power is 60hz, which it means it oscillates between + the rated voltage and - the rated voltage 60 times per second, so 110v oscillates between +110v and -110v 60 times per second.

Single Phase household service has two 110 volt (nominal) legs.  The phase on these two legs are 180 degrees out of phase, so when one is at +110v, the other is at -110v, the difference between the two is 220v, and that's how you get 220v in a household single phase service.  Without a transformer, you will never get any more voltage than that.

Mark

 

 

 

[Willja67 144]

Thanks for all the tips guys. I do have a small amount of experience with oxyacetalene welding when I was briefly in an A&P program.  My welding wasn't anything to write home about, but then again the program was designed to give knowledge about what welds looked  like not turn us into professional  welders. Hence the oft repeated counsel in this thread to practice a lot. 

[1avidflyer 1983]

What I've done with my airplane projects, is tack everything in place with gas weld, and take it to a guy I trust who does it with tig.  One less thing for me to worry about.  I wish I could do better myself, but I'll be the one  whose life is on the line, and I have enough to worry about thinking I put the rest of the plane together....JImChuk

PS  what was the movie where the guy says "a mans got to know his limitations"   Dirty Harry maybe???

Edited 15 Jan 2020 by 1avidflyer

[nlappos 413]

Laying in a 220V outlet in the garage is pretty easy, here are some videos: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9ro7Tc2nFI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u296hiXRzlE

[Good old number 29 158]

Gas welding really is a good way to go for thin steel like this. It’s just a matter of pulling the heat off before it starts sparking off and burning through. You have to be kind of quick with the torch. TIG is pretty similar to gas welding, but with more precise control of the heat. I see a lot of welding snobs turn up their nose at the self-contained MIG boxes, but some of them are pretty decent. I have a dual voltage Lincoln MIG box that I like. You can run it on 120 or 240 volt just by switching the cord. It won’t do everything you can do with a professional high amperage setup, but it will handle the small stuff just fine. It does take gas for true MIG (some little wire feed boxes don’t), or flux core (FCAW) without it. You can also get a spool gun for it and weld aluminum, but you do need to use 240v to get much good use out of that. The gas welding I did on the plane looks great. It was a solid 95%. MIG was hit and miss, with most of the misses due to being out of position and bad visibility. If you have a good angle on it and you can reach it and see it, it works fine. A good welding hood is worth the cost. If I didn’t have the other options, I would have happily welded everything I did on the plane with the torch. If you’re getting a wire feed, get a good brand name one that does mig, not just flux core. 

[Allen Sutphin 705]

Its generally hard to beat a set of torches. But any setup isn't worth a dang unless you can use it. One project or a small job. its more about how much you want to invest and the learning curve to go with it. At my stage in life, I'll stay with my torches and take the special welds to a welder. My little mini Smith torch is perfect for 4130 tubing.

[Buckchop 479]

THAT Y I SAID TWO DIFFERENT HOUSE BREAKERS.  AND I KNOW IT WORKS, but thanks for the post. 

And sorry but i wasnt clear enough about 480, any dummy knows u cant get that in a house i was refuring to a genset (but i should have been clearer) and how u can make power from other SEPERATE sources, if u disagree come on out to the mine here ill show u how.  Mayb not legel or to CODE but thats wasnt the point i was gettin to.  Next we can talk about 3phase. Hahahahahahaha

there is already 220 in every house just like there is 110, they split the 220 to make ur 110 service. 

My two cents, now im broke. Hahahahaaaa