LiFePO4 battery and a 582?

[109jb 181]

With the cold weather coming in fast I'm thinking about switching from the SLA battery my Kitfox came with to a LiFePO4 battery. I have never used a LiFePO4 battery, but reading up on them it appears that ideally they should have 14.0 to 15.0v charging input. My Kitfox has a 582 paired with a Key West voltage regulator/rectifier. The specs on the regulator/rectifier say that it regulates to 13.8v. So this I guess means that the LiFePO4 would not get fully charged. I am interested if anyone running a 582 has tried a LiFePO4 battery and what your experience is.  Namely will it work with a 13.8v regulator?

 

Thanks

[akflyer 1427]

What does the cold weather have to do with the equation?  I used a PC680 for a whole lot of years and never had an issue with it starting the plane at temp as low as -35.  Most people don't get out and fly at those temps   Using one for weight savings is one thing, but I would not factor cooler weather into it.

For the record, I have seen these batteries being used in 582 power machines for years and it seems that they work just fine.  Don't go cheap on one though, make sure the built in charge system is a good one.  

[109jb 181]

The cold weather only factors in because the current battery is an unknown age (came with the plane when i bought it), and it is showing that it is weak. If I want to fly this winter I'm going to have to replace it with something. Could be a new SLA or AGM, but I figured if I need a new battery now I may as well think about the LiFePO4 batteries.

[109jb 181]

After doing some more research it seems that LiFePO4 batteries aren't that great in cold weather anyway so I'm going to stick with a SLA or AGM battery for my main battery. I think I will buy a LiFePO4 jump start battery pack though.

[akflyer 1427]

I keep a jump pack in the plane, truck, side x side and boat.  Less than 2 pounds of great insurance when one forgets to turn off the master etc.

 

When it comes to cold weather the oddessey batteries have never let me down yet!  

 

[109jb 181]

Yeah, I was just looking at "powersports" batteries and the Odyssey batteries are only a few dollars more than the other name brand batteries. The no-name batteries are cheaper but I tend to stay away from them anyway. A recommendation from someone like you who operates where it is REALLY cold is more than enough to justify a few extra dollars for the Odyssey. Now I just have to measure the current battery to make sure I get the right size.  Thanks for the insight.

[akflyer 1427]

Just another shameless plug for them.. I got rid of the big heavy Concord batteries that were in the pacer and the 180.  The small odyssey battery will rip the 0320 and 0470 over even when its cold.  

I cheaped out and got a napa battery for my sled and the lawnmower.. failed in the first year on both.  Stepped up and got the odyssey battery for both of them and still going years later.

Some things I will skimp on, something I just bite the bullet.  Over the years I learned that cheap batteries will leave you stranded just when you need them the most.  As you pointed out above, you can get a lithium jumper pack that will put out 800 amps for well under 100 bucks these days.  They can be / are a real life saver when needed!

 

Additional tip.  The lithium batteries are affected by the cold, however, in most cases, when you first hit the key or the button they might not want to turn it over.  Hold that button for 4 or 5 seconds.  This creates heat in the battery and "wakes it up".  Let it set for 15 or 20 seconds then try it again.  Most of the time it will fire on the second try.

 

[nlappos 413]

109jb

I am putting a bunch of Tesla batteries in my new off grid house and have learned a bunch about them. For our purposes, while the weight savings is fantastic, the down side isn't

Freezing weather is one, they really misbehave if you charge or discharge them below freezing. Also, the battery monitor has to be unique to the type of Lithium battery, in terms of the allowed max voltage, charge rate and such. 

I wanted to go the route you thought about, then went to Walmart and bought another lawn tractor battery!

[Allen Sutphin 705]

A crappy battery can cause several issues besides poor cranking. A good battery is usually money well spent.

[109jb 181]

109jb

I am putting a bunch of Tesla batteries in my new off grid house and have learned a bunch about them. For our purposes, while the weight savings is fantastic, the down side isn't

Freezing weather is one, they really misbehave if you charge or discharge them below freezing. Also, the battery monitor has to be unique to the type of Lithium battery, in terms of the allowed max voltage, charge rate and such. 

I wanted to go the route you thought about, then went to Walmart and bought another lawn tractor battery!

yep. That's exactly what my research showed. In warmer climates they look great, but not so much for cold weather ops 

[1avidflyer 1983]

I've just been running lawn tractor batteries in my Avid.  And I have the battery back in the tail as far back as I can get it for CG purposes.  I did get stuck at the airport this summer after one flight though.  The Jabirus can get a bit tight when they are warm and you shut them down for a few minutes.  When I tried it the next day with everything cooled down, it fired right off, but changed out to the bigger battery when I got it home.  The battery was getting old though, so in a way I wasn't surprised.  JImChuk

Edited 15 Dec 2019 by 1avidflyer

[wypaul 448]

I've been running the EarthX battery for several years and would not go back, my engine is 912 ULS  I EVEN put one in my Q2 before I sold it.  It took two odyssey batteries to crank the Jabiru 3300 when it was warm.  The little EarthX handles it by it self. So I lost about 25+ lbs and it cranks better always.  In cold weather the heater fan is turned on for about 10 seconds and the the battery comes up to full power unlike the lead-acid.  Another nice feature is the fact that the EX holds its charge for months.  The downside is the cost of course, and if you forget and leave the master on it takes a special charger to recharge it.

My first Odyssey lasted for over 10 years.  They are by far and a way better than the garden tractor batteries but they cost more for initial investment but far less in the long term.  The garden tractor/motorcycle battery would not crank the Jabiru 3300 fast enough to start it under any condition.

An EarthX convert for sure,

[109jb 181]

I made a decision.

My old battery is a 18 AH 12180 AGM battery that is found in older jump start packs, emergency lighting, UPS, etc. It gives no indication that it is bad other than it can't crank my 582 fast enough to start at 20 deg F. I couldn't find a single spec for this battery regarding CCA, HCA, PHCA, or anything similar. 

I decided to go with a EXT18L AGM motorcycle battery for now for a couple reasons.  One is that this is the same battery I have in my bike and it has been in there for 4 seasons so far and still cranks the big 1700 cc twin over just fine. I start the bike every couple weeks in the winter and it is in the unheated section of my barn and it has no problem withstarting the bike even at temps as low as 0 deg F. Spec wise, the EXT18L is 340 CCA, 20 AH, 18 lbs.  I really debated about the PC680, but decided that the double CCA (170 for the PC680) was worth the extra weight. The PC680 is 15.4 lbs and the battery that I'm replacing is 12.5. If the engien starts when I want it to the 5.5 pound weight gain will be fine with me. Price came in there a little as the EXT81L is about 1/2 the price.  I had to make a new battery tray to accommodate the larger size but I figure the EXT18L is as large as needed and if I ever want to go to a PC680 I can simply install it. I made the tray such that I can put in any battery the same size or smaller than the EXT18L.

Today isn't a great test since temps here are in the 40 deg F range, but with the new battery the engine cranks over about 600 rpm compared to 350 at best with the old battery. Those were tests with the gas turned off to see how fast the cranking was. The test with the old battery  was after it was fully charged from a tender, and the new battery was as received after buying it. The voltmeter read 12.2V on the new battery so this wasn't even fully charged.

This isn't a condemnation of the PC680 in any way.  The old battery was an unknown in terms of cranking amps and I just decided to maximize cranking amps. It could very well be that the generic 12180 battery is very weak on CCA, and it isn't really intended to be a starting battery as far as I'm concerned. The PC680 is a 170 CCA battery and that may well be plenty. I don't see why it won't, but if the EXT18L battery doesn't last I'll probably try the PC680 or a LiFePO4. The LiFePO4 EarthX batteries are just too high price for me right at the moment. Perhaps down the road.

Edited 21 Dec 2019 by 109jb

[1avidflyer 1983]

Don't remember if it was mentioned or not, but if you have the synthetic gear lube in your gear box, you will find the engine spins over way better in cold weather.  It doesn't get thick when the cold temps hit it like regular gear lube.  JImChuk

[109jb 181]

Don't remember if it was mentioned or not, but if you have the synthetic gear lube in your gear box, you will find the engine spins over way better in cold weather.  It doesn't get thick when the cold temps hit it like regular gear lube.  JImChuk

Thanks. Already has synthetic gear lube in it.  I think the main problem was a battery not really intended to start engines.