Reregistering in order to get repairmans cert?

[Willja67 144]

Ok guys I'm hoping there are some devious souls among you that know how to fight officaldom.

I'm stripping my plane down to the last nut and bolt, installing a new engine and a whole lot of other major and minor alterations. I recently got in contact with the local DAR to make sure I dot all i's and cross all t's. I also asked if I could get the repairmans certification since I'm taking the plane down to roughly a quick build state.  This was his reply: 

"Amateur-built Repairman certificates can only be issued on original certification.  In your case, it is being changed from the original configuration but not being re-certified.  So, the answer is you will need an A&P to perform annual condition inspections." 

Ive read other comments I think on this board, about those who have managed that feat. So where are the loopholes?

 

Edited 12 Oct 2019 by Willja67

[Avid Bart 39]

Build a "new" plane from parts.

[Willja67 144]

Build a "new" plane from parts.

ok,  that's an idea. Ive read that you're required to have a bill of sale for a kit so verification can be made that you did more than 50% of the work. I have a bill of sale for an aircraft with an airworthiness certificate and an N number. Not sure how to jump through that hoop.

[109jb 181]

Even without a Repairman certificate, anybody can do maintenance, repairs, modifications, etc. The ONLY thing a Repairman certificate or a A&P is needed for is the Annual Condition Inspection. That can be done by an A&P and it doesn't have to be a mechanic with an Inspection Authorization (IA). That said, I just had my Kitfox IV  Annual Condition Inspection done by an IA (owner assisted), and it cost me all of $200.

So you are either going to have to lie to the feds to get a Repairman Cert, or just suck it up and pay a little for the freedom that we have wrt homebuilding.

BTW, how do you know that there aren't feds that read this forum?? 

[Willja67 144]

BTW, how do you know that there aren't feds that read this forum?? 

i realize i used the words devious and so forth. I really do want to do this legally.  I was just hoping there was some way to work through the system to achieve that objective. Ive read other comments about people who managed that. Maybe it was a case of "my uncle's cousins, former roommate". Which means "absolutely nothing" You can ask a dozen different government officials about a subject and get a dozen different answers. Somewhere there might be an official or individual like me that came up with a creative solution. And it's not necessarily about the money. At one point in time I was enrolled in A&P school but dropped out.  It would be nice to be considered as an A&P  even if only for a single aircraft. But I absolutely hate and despise paperwork so if there is a way to get the repairmans certificate it's probably more work than I'm willing to do. That's one of the reasons I never went back to school. I couldn't stand the thought of dealing with the FAA paper work day in and day out.

[NorthIdahoAvidflyer 374]

I went through this a year ago. You probably got your answer but here it is in short. If you plan to use the old registration you won’t be issued a repairmans certification. Luckily mine had never been registered so I took pictures and proved 51%. 

I’ve know people in your shoes that have de-register the aircraft, rebuild and plane, re-register as it was build from parts (no need for bill of sale from anyone), proved 51% and was able to obtain a Airworthiness Certification and a Repairmans Certification. 

[nlappos 413]

The big deal is the airworthiness certificate. If you turn that back in, to save $200 a year (that's what I pay the A&P who does my annual) you must re-substantiate the airworthiness of the aircraft, not a small job, and now made more difficult because it is a pile of random parts, not a complete kit from the kit company. But if you are tearing it down anyway, you will do the work, so it might be worth it.

[NorthIdahoAvidflyer 374]

It’s no more work (paperwork) building from a kit versus building from parts. In fact it’s less if the kit has changed hands because you have to prove a paper trail of ownership. When you check the built from parts box all that goes away and you are still building it from parts. The FAA does not care about where all the parts come from nor do you have to prove where they come from. It all get the same inspection in the end.

Would I take a completed flying plane and de-register it to save $200 a year.....no. It’s a lot of extra paperwork and I feel it’s always a good idea to have another set of eyes look over the airplane. 

Just me two pennies.  

[akflyer 1427]

I went through this with mine.  I bought a twisted pile of metal tubes and broken plywood.  I stripped it down and did more work on it than would have been required had I built it from the kit.  FSDO said no way on getting the repairman's for it as I was not the original builder.  If the plane was previously registered and had an airworthiness, your not going to get the repairman's cert for that aircraft unless you were the original builder.

[Av8r3400 1179]

What’s wrong with having someone else check the plane over every year?

[Willja67 144]

My father is a pretty good mechanic, much better than I am and he can't stand having anyone else touch his vehicles. He's not a very trusting soul when it comes to his babies. That rubbed off. Although not being as good as he is and living a significant distance away means I've had to trust my truck to a shop. That's been difficult. Hopefully i can pick it up in the next few days and I'm going to be holding my breath for quite awhile to see if they did it right. 

And yes I know I can assist in the inspection if I find an A&P who agrees to that.  I think I already have one lined up. 

[akflyer 1427]

I spend a lot more time on my planes than I guess most do.  I know every nut and bolt on them.  I don't wait for an annual inspection, I am going over mine much more often.  When it comes time for an annual. There is almost never an issue that the mechanic comes up with that I did not already know about.  So I pretty much do it all, then he double checks things.  AS Larry said, it really doesn't hurt to have another set of eyes on your bird and in the grand scheme of things, its only pennies that you pay out to have these checks done.

[Willja67 144]

Well you guys have talked me out of it. I don't plan on ever selling it but if I do it'll be in pieces. Just doing too much that increases the liability exponentially.

[Av8r3400 1179]

Well you guys have talked me out of it. I don't plan on ever selling it but if I do it'll be in pieces. Just doing too much that increases the liability exponentially.

There has never been, nor is there legal grounds for a liability suit in selling an experimental aircraft, I have consulted an aviation attorney on this.  Destroying a good airplane out of fear of liability is being ignorant of the facts.

[Willja67 144]

Well you guys have talked me out of it. I don't plan on ever selling it but if I do it'll be in pieces. Just doing too much that increases the liability exponentially.

There has never been, nor is there legal grounds for a liability suit in selling an experimental aircraft, I have consulted an aviation attorney on this.  Destroying a good airplane out of fear of liability is being ignorant of the facts.

I can't honestly offer any proof other than "read/ heard about" etc but Ive listened to arguments on both sides about someone's attorney saying the EAA's sellers release of liability is iron clad and others saying their attorney says it's a joke. My personal belief is that it depends on how good your lawyer is and perhaps how many palms get greased.  In this litigious society we live in its hard not to be paranoid. 

[Av8r3400 1179]

Well you guys have talked me out of it. I don't plan on ever selling it but if I do it'll be in pieces. Just doing too much that increases the liability exponentially.

There has never been, nor is there legal grounds for a liability suit in selling an experimental aircraft, I have consulted an aviation attorney on this.  Destroying a good airplane out of fear of liability is being ignorant of the facts.

I can't honestly offer any proof other than "read/ heard about" etc but Ive listened to arguments on both sides about someone's attorney saying the EAA's sellers release of liability is iron clad and others saying their attorney says it's a joke. My personal belief is that it depends on how good your lawyer is and perhaps how many palms get greased.  In this litigious society we live in its hard not to be paranoid. 

you better just stay in bed for the rest of your life, then. 

[Willja67 144]

Everyone chooses where to take their risks. "I'm not going to stay in bed" I'm going to complete my highly modified kitfox and then hopefully fly the crap out of it,  which i would think qualifies as trying to live life to the fullest. If i choose to stay away from what I consider would risk liability that's my choice. 

[Willja67 144]

Btw I have had some experience with the legal system. Almost 12 years ago I got in a wreck in my bosses pickup. Totally my fault. Problem was that even though i had permission from my boss to use the truck for any work related activities he only had it insured as a private vehicle. Id driven it 90-100 times in the 8 months I worked for him, but as soon as he realized what that was going to do to him he started  lying about it.  Fortunately for me I had called him from the site of the accident and hadn't tried to drive off. He tried to convince the cops to arrest me for stealing his truck. Fortunately for me the cops recognized what was going on and refused, they even tried to give me a heads up without coming out and saying it.  Also fortunately for me, my bosses partner told a way different story than my boss(both recorded and transcribed) so they ended up looking like idiots. That didn't stop a 4 year long legal battle between his insurance company and mine over who should pay for it. Eventually it was sent to arbitration and I think my insurance company won. If you can call it that. I'm sure they didn't recoup the costs of the 4 year legal battle. If things can get that dirty over $10k worth of vehicle repairs I have no doubt they can get even more nasty over a dead husband.  Maybe I would win in the end but I shudder to think of what my financial situation would be afterward.  

Edited 21 Oct 2019 by Willja67

[Allen Sutphin 705]

Your airplane, your parts, free to do as you choose. Always a market for parts! But you are right in one aspect, we are in a crazy "I'll sue" society. One can be sued for just about anything, anymore. One reason I am no longer an IA. Insurance cost are thru the roof.