Flaperons

[Allen Sutphin 705]

Have been studying the flaperon mechanism and come up with an idea to make them differential. I initially think all one has to do is rotate the flaperon horn to the rear approx. 10-15 deg and maybe add a control stop in the works. That way the down one would only move down so far and the up one would still have full movement. Say a 3/1 ratio. As far as using flaps, that is an independent control and would have little effect on the (aileron side) other control. Will probably do a little more research on this but it worked like a charm on my challenger and only had to make new longer control rods. This would only work on a model 1, 2 or 3.  Something to ponder on?

[FredStork 453]

Is there no modified bell cranks for the KitFox like the F7A bell cranks for the Avid?  

[Allen Sutphin 705]

One would have to change the complete control system due to different linkages. Could be done but a lot of time involved and not on a covered  airframe.

[1avidflyer 1983]

Allen, I'm trying to wrap my mind around what you are saying, do you mean to twist the flaperon horn so it is more verticle?  That would have an effect of causing less movement of the flaperon as it gets closer to the top.  You would also hit the turtle deck most likely, although that could be worked around with a bump out or something I'm guessing.   I borrowed this picture to help with what I'm trying to say.  JImChuk 

PS, now that I think about it some more, making the horn more verticle may have the same effect as making it shorter if it was less verticle and that would increase movement of the flaperon.  I need to get out to my work bench and find a protractor and stuff.   

Edited 23 May 2019 by 1avidflyer

[Allen Sutphin 705]

Twist it to the rear. Forward would give more down, which increases the adverse yaw. And yes, the turtledeck might give problems. When I get the flaperons installed I'll experiment with it. Basically the flaperon itself would be netural and the horn angled rearward a bit more. Would lessen the down movement and increase the up movement. I don't know how the Avid control rod is set up, might be different from a Kitfox.

[skelly 12]

Any more info on this ?

Did it work ?

Cheers,

Skelly.

[1avidflyer 1983]

Just my opinion, but if you really wanted to get less adverse yaw, I would do what TJay did and copy the Kitfox 4 mixer.  The engineers at Kitfox "probably" know more than we do.  And it's been a proven design for more than 20 yrs.  Or just learn to use your feet.  Adverse yaw isn't that bad in the early models.  Maybe if I had the welding skills TJay has I would look at it some what differently, but I would leave it as is and learn to love it.  YMMV.  JImChuk

[TJay 1041]

Just my opinion, but if you really wanted to get less adverse yaw, I would do what TJay did and copy the Kitfox 4 mixer.  The engineers at Kitfox "probably" know more than we do.  And it's been a proven design for more than 20 yrs.  Or just learn to use your feet.  Adverse yaw isn't that bad in the early models.  Maybe if I had the welding skills TJay has I would look at it some what differently, but I would leave it as is and learn to love it.  YMMV.  JImChuk

Think its more than 20 years. Cant remember what 1930-1940  museum plane I saw it in but it was the  same type setup as the kitfox I just laughed when I saw it. 

[1avidflyer 1983]

 

Think its more than 20 years. Cant remember what 1930-1940  museum plane I saw it in but it was the  same type setup as the kitfox I just laughed when I saw it. 

I'm not surprised.  Nothing new under the sun it seems.  Even the wing folding Avid started using was done 50 or 60 years earlier.  

[saskavid 47]

Just my opinion, but if you really wanted to get less adverse yaw, I would do what TJay did and copy the Kitfox 4 mixer.  The engineers at Kitfox "probably" know more than we do.  And it's been a proven design for more than 20 yrs.  Or just learn to use your feet.  Adverse yaw isn't that bad in the early models.  Maybe if I had the welding skills TJay has I would look at it some what differently, but I would leave it as is and learn to love it.  YMMV.  JImChuk

Think its more than 20 years. Cant remember what 1930-1940  museum plane I saw it in but it was the  same type setup as the kitfox I just laughed when I saw it. 

So it was the same mixer as the early kitfox/avid or the newer mixer you built?

[TJay 1041]

 

Think its more than 20 years. Cant remember what 1930-1940  museum plane I saw it in but it was the  same type setup as the kitfox I just laughed when I saw it. 

I'm not surprised.  Nothing new under the sun it seems.  Even the wing folding Avid started using was done 50 or 60 years earlier.  

That just goes to show how smart and talented those old timers were.

[TJay 1041]

Just my opinion, but if you really wanted to get less adverse yaw, I would do what TJay did and copy the Kitfox 4 mixer.  The engineers at Kitfox "probably" know more than we do.  And it's been a proven design for more than 20 yrs.  Or just learn to use your feet.  Adverse yaw isn't that bad in the early models.  Maybe if I had the welding skills TJay has I would look at it some what differently, but I would leave it as is and learn to love it.  YMMV.  JImChuk

Think its more than 20 years. Cant remember what 1930-1940  museum plane I saw it in but it was the  same type setup as the kitfox I just laughed when I saw it. 

So it was the same mixer as the early kitfox/avid or the newer mixer you built?

If your asking me I built the new design Kitfox 4-7 style

[saskavid 47]

Just my opinion, but if you really wanted to get less adverse yaw, I would do what TJay did and copy the Kitfox 4 mixer.  The engineers at Kitfox "probably" know more than we do.  And it's been a proven design for more than 20 yrs.  Or just learn to use your feet.  Adverse yaw isn't that bad in the early models.  Maybe if I had the welding skills TJay has I would look at it some what differently, but I would leave it as is and learn to love it.  YMMV.  JImChuk

Think its more than 20 years. Cant remember what 1930-1940  museum plane I saw it in but it was the  same type setup as the kitfox I just laughed when I saw it. 

So it was the same mixer as the early kitfox/avid or the newer mixer you built?

If your asking me I built the new design Kitfox 4-7 style

Sorry Tjay what I'm trying to ask is was the mixer on the antique 1930-1940 museum plane like an early kitfox/ avid style or the newer kitfox 4/7 you built for your plane?

[TJay 1041]

Haha yes it was just like the one in the newer kitfoxes. When I saw it I thought thats how kitfox  came up with the design.  I wish I could remember where that museum  was been to so many in the last 10 years. Love visiting them.

[skelly 12]

Just a thought but if you put the control horn at the rear you would have to use the stick in the opposite way to what you normally would which may cause some some confusion while flying.

I wonder if the control linkage can somehow be reversed..

[Craig kennedy 1]

I don't have experience in flying my model 2 and have only flown the model 7 once.  Could someone explain the major and miner differences in flight controls. How much better is the 4 and later mixer and is it just when flaps are extended that it makes the difference.  Wondering if it's worth the trouble re enginearing in the 2 since I'm upgrading things.  My main objective is slow flight and STOL for this project.  Thanks, Craig

[1avidflyer 1983]

TJay who posted earlier in this string of messages did this on his Kitfox 1.  If you search Kitfox 1 wing conversion  you should find his videos of what he did and how it worked out.  Maybe he will respond to your questions as well. 

Edited 16 Feb 2023 by 1avidflyer

[Av8r3400 1178]

I don't have experience in flying my model 2 and have only flown the model 7 once.  Could someone explain the major and miner differences in flight controls. How much better is the 4 and later mixer and is it just when flaps are extended that it makes the difference.  Wondering if it's worth the trouble re enginearing in the 2 since I'm upgrading things.  My main objective is slow flight and STOL for this project.  Thanks, Craig

There's nothing really "wrong" with how the early 'Foxes fly.  They just require proper and liberal use of the rudder.

On the early wing flap usage really isn't a thing.  The under camber wing has plenty of drag to slow you down and flap deployment doesn't really ad much lift.  "Flaps" are more used for pitch trim.