incremental flaperon control lever for my Model 2 Kitfox.

[herman pahls 9]

I have never used the flap feature on my model 2 Kitfox for landing and take off because I was advised early on that the flap feature was not very effective  and severely limited the aileron effectiveness with the flap feature utilized.

I recently noticed on another forum that a  kitfox Owner used full flaps momentairily just before lift off to help levitate the airplane.

I flew this evening to find out if it works to shorten my take off roll, which has been a problem ever since installing 29" ABW.

I googled to see if incremental flap handles for Kitfox or Avid are available.

To adjust flaps on my Model 2  there is a friction device consisting of a piece of leather pinched between 2 round flat surfaces.

I want make or buy a push button type lever that has a position for take off and another position to help levitate the airplane when needed. 

I will appreciate any ideas how to accomplish this or where to buy an incremental flap handle.

Also, is using the flap feature accomplishing so much or is it just my imagination.

Thanks Herman

 

 

[C5Engineer 1170]

Herman I use flaps on EVERY take-off. Makes a HUGE difference on my plane. I pull them about halfway on or so for the start of the roll. It helps get the tail up. Pour the coals on, get the tail up build a little smash and then jerk them clear on and it'll pop right off the ground. As soon as I am climbing away I just slowly push the lever back down to let them back out. On mine the bolt goes through two round disks with some felt between them. I had to tighten the bolt down quite a bit to get the flaps to stay full on. On landing I only just barely crack them on a little bit to get rid of some reflex which increases my roll rate. I have played with using full flaps (about 15 degrees) for landing but it makes me have to use a ton of back pressure and land using alot of power. It will fly slower though more comfortably with them on. If I ever had a engine hiccup though dragging it in with all that back pressure it wouldn't be pretty.

 

You don't need notches just play with it a little bit. It's not like a Cessna where it's not going to fly with them full on. I think you'll quite surprised at how it affects the takeoff. It makes my plane literally jump off the ground. It flies off like a B-52 where your climbing away but the nose isn't pointed straight up it's almost level.

[SuberAvid 617]

I use flaps for every takeoff and landing now just as a habit.  It makes a big difference in my Avid + and an even bigger difference in the Avid MKIV, probably because it is lighter.  I leave flaps off until rotation speed then pull full flaps as you pull the stick back.  Landing is slower as well with full flaps although there is quite a bit of stick back pressure even with the trim maxed out.  Suggest you play with it a while and see what works best for you.  I think you will find it makes quite a difference.

 

My MKIV worked fine with just the friction setup and I was happy with it as it was.  On my Avid+ the flap linkage has a lot less leverage and a shorter throw to overcome the wind pressure on the flaps so I had to shorten the linkage arm some and build a dentent setup to hold the flaps on.  It works great on the Avid+ but was not needed on the MkIV unless you just want to have the detents.  Pictures of the Avid+ flap detent are attached.

[herman pahls 9]

Thanks Joey and Randy for replying.

I am embarrassed that after flying this thing all these years it took a recent post on a forum for me to realize that I have been missing out not using the flap feature of the flaperons.

I thought I needed more power to get the Bushwheels to levitate when using very low air pressure for gravel bars and I find out that cycling the flaperons at the appropriate time gets the job done.

So my question is how much flap in approximate degrees do you use for say long final and then short final?

How much do you use for take off roll and then how much more for rotation?

I realize each Kitfox or Avid may differ in how much flap works best.

Is the limiting factor how much roll control remains for the circumstances like cross wind and how much backpressure one feels comfortable with?

I like the multiple detent idea so I could try different settings to determine the flap position that feels right for both take off and landing.

Thanks Herman

[EDMO 1078]

With, or without the detent, I think it is nice to have a scale next to the flap lever to show how much you have it set at.

They do limit your roll control some.

We used to yank the manual flaps down during the TO in the old Stintson - made it jump off quickly.

EDMO

[C5Engineer 1170]

^{For takeoff you are not going to notice the roll issue at least I don't because my takeoffs average about 4 seconds . On landing I don't think they make enough of a difference unless you were flying an approach where everything had to be absolutely perfect in order to get stopped in time. You know how fast these planes slow down. When I was experimenting I would fly a normal approach at say 55 and then coming across the "numbers" start feeding in some flap and power shooting for around 45 while rounding out. Every other approach I do without flaps I keep it around 50. The stopping difference between the two is negligible at least in my airplane.}

[herman pahls 9]

Joey

So is the bottom line with flaperons on these Avid's and Fox's is that they are most useful to break ground ASAP on take off?

Otherwise they have minimal effect in comparison to say normal flaps on a Just Highlander ?

What part of the world are you in?

Herman

[Av8r3400 1178]

Flaps on an Avid/Kitfox do add to lift in slow flight. Unlike the Highlander or other "standard" trailing edge flaps, they do not add a lot of drag. My Model IV Kitfox is a little different because the wing and flapperon design is a little more slippery, but the over all effect is very similar. (Joey lives in the north bay area of Mexifornia. He's currently on active duty overseas while his plane is making lonely whimpering noises at home.)

[lv2plyguitar 172]

My limited experience is that if I use no flaps on landing the tail wants to lay low and if I am slow enough my tail wheel touches first.  I don't like that.  The flaps help keep the nose down and the tail up at slower speeds.

[SuberAvid 617]

Thanks Joey and Randy for replying.

I am embarrassed that after flying this thing all these years it took a recent post on a forum for me to realize that I have been missing out not using the flap feature of the flaperons.

I thought I needed more power to get the Bushwheels to levitate when using very low air pressure for gravel bars and I find out that cycling the flaperons at the appropriate time gets the job done.

So my question is how much flap in approximate degrees do you use for say long final and then short final?

How much do you use for take off roll and then how much more for rotation?

I realize each Kitfox or Avid may differ in how much flap works best.

Is the limiting factor how much roll control remains for the circumstances like cross wind and how much backpressure one feels comfortable with?

I like the multiple detent idea so I could try different settings to determine the flap position that feels right for both take off and landing.

Thanks Herman

I use no flaps on the takeoff roll and then pull on full flaps right at rotation.  On landing, I pull in a notch of flaps once I get below 80 mph; then about 1/2 flaps when I am on base or when I am manuvering to figure out my landing spot so I can fly a little slower; I go to full flaps on final unless it is really windy, then I use about 3/4 flaps.  I increased my flap travel to 26 degrees which puts the flaperon at about 40 degrees at max stick deflection.  I have had it this way on my Avid+ for over two years and have never had any indication of control reversal but I doubt have ever had to go to full stick deflection to control with flaps at full on.

[marshawk 82]

Hi Randy, I'm just at this stage of building a flap mechanism kinda like yours, I just want to be sure on the degrees. Does the flap handle have the 26 degrees  of travel from the first notch to the last notch and the flaperon has  a total travel of -3  to 40 degrees. Was each notch at any paticular degree or did you just evenly space the notches threw the travel of the flap handle,  Hope this makes sense cause im probably not quite using the right terms ,also by any chance are you using and MSD ignition on your soob.

 

Thanks

[akflyer 1427]

I use full flaps every take off and landing unless I am dealing with a nasty gusty cross wind.  If the wind is on the nose, you are leaving alot of performance on the table by not using them. 

 

Take it up to altitude and play with them.  do some slow flight with and without and see what your comfortable with before you play down low on landing with them.  They do make a bif difference on the Mod I and II that I have flown as far as getting off and on quicker.

 

[SuberAvid 617]

Hi Randy, I'm just at this stage of building a flap mechanism kinda like yours, I just want to be sure on the degrees. Does the flap handle have the 26 degrees  of travel from the first notch to the last notch and the flaperon has  a total travel of -3  to 40 degrees. Was each notch at any paticular degree or did you just evenly space the notches threw the travel of the flap handle,  Hope this makes sense cause im probably not quite using the right terms ,also by any chance are you using and MSD ignition on your soob.

 

Thanks

Hi Willis, 

 

The 26 degrees is measured on the flap itself from off to full on with the stick centered.  I am not sure what the degree movement of the flap handle is but it might be near that.  On the detents, I just equally spaced as many as I could get in there.  I used a 3/16 bolt in the handle push rod to engage the detents so I drilled 3/16 holes along the arc and left 3/16 space between them.

 

I have an MSD coil joiner but am running the RAM dual ignition distributor and dual coils on mine.

 

Randy

[High Country 69]

I'm still a couple months away from being in the air so I can't comment on the use of flaps but here is a pic of how I changed my flap handle, I did it to accommodate a different mixer setup but it could easily be done to your current setup if you wanted to have the notches. the aluminum "former stop sign" was just cut to a shape that fit well and was small it attaches using a bolt through the original flap handle- the one you are currently using- then there are two small aluminum bands that are riveted on going around the tubing, it has clecos still in these old pics. good luck

 

-Robert-

[marshawk 82]

Looks good Robert,going to do something similar,and Thanks Randy for clarifying the flap travel

[herman pahls 9]

Randy and Robert

Thanks for posting photos of your incremental flap actuators.

Gives me a good idea how to get started without re inventing the wheel.

I also appreciate the comments on how Avid and Fox owners use their flapperons.

Thanks Herman

[C5Engineer 1170]

Spotted this trick little set up for the CH701 today while looking for something else.

 

kube_kontrol_ii.pdf

[SkyPirate 8]

messing around one day I built this ,,was thinking of increment flap control for my old model 2 but it could be used for trim,..leading edge horizontal stab adjuster,.."bomb bay doors lol"..what ever..