Nose wheel/Grove gear

[1avidflyer 1983]

Hi all, I got this gear with my last Avid MK IV purchase. The gear was on the plane at one time, but it was back in taildragger configuration when I bought it. Not sure what I'll do with the gear, might sell it????/> Thought about using the Grove gear as a conventional setup, but it's kind of short, and I'm not sure if it is heavy enough. Anyway, here are the dimentions. overall width = 66", 34" wide at the top, 18" from top of gear to floor, probably would be 16" from top to center of axels. Gear is 3/4" thick, 5" wide on top, and is 2" wide at the very bottom of the legs. Drilled for hydrolic brakes. The nose gear mounted on two tabs that were welded to the bottom tube of the seat truss, and the suspention went up to a round bracket that was welded to the bottom of the cluster of tubes that includes the tube your right foot rubs against when you are flying the plane. Hope that last sentence is understandable. Anyway, I'll post some pics as well. Anyone able to tell me anything about this gear. Is the nosewheel a copy of anything you recognize. I think it's different that the factory Avid setup. Thanks, Jim Chuk

Edited 26 Feb 2013 by Jim Chuk

[dholly 718]

Hi Jim - that nosegear looks like a Kitfox product to me. On a Kitfox, the top of the shock attaches to the engine mount, not the fuselage (see pg. 16 in the attached .pdf).

Kitfox SS Nose Gear Install.pdf

[1avidflyer 1983]

Hey Doug, thanks a lot! You answered both of my questions. On page 5 and page 9 of the sheets you posted, I see how the Grove gear mounts on to the plane. Looks just like what I saw Saturday on that Kitfox 5. Also, the nose wheel set up looks just like the one I have as well. Wonder what Kitfox gets for one of them?? $$$$$ I'm sure! Thanks again, Jim Chuk

Hi Jim - that nosegear looks like a Kitfox product to me. On a Kitfox, the top of the shock attaches to the engine mount, not the fuselage (see pg. 16 in the attached .pdf).

[EDMO 1078]

Hey Doug, thanks a lot! You answered both of my questions. On page 5 and page 9 of the sheets you posted, I see how the Grove gear mounts on to the plane. Looks just like what I saw Saturday on that Kitfox 5. Also, the nose wheel set up looks just like the one I have as well. Wonder what Kitfox gets for one of them?? $$$$$ I'm sure! Thanks again, Jim Chuk

Jim, Thanks for the nose gear photos - I tried for a long time (years) to get prints or photos of the complete setup - finally gave up and designed my own.

I cant find a match in my old Grove catalogs in either Avid or Kitfox, except your 66 width is the same as the Avid taildragger - the nose-gear Avid is only 62 inches. However, the height you listed is for a nose gear, as the TD is 22 inches tall. Also, my book only lists a 7/8 inch thickness for 1200 gross, and guessing yours is for about 1050 or so?

It is not any of the standard for Kitfoxes either. Maybe it is a custom gear?

One way to find out something without guessing is to call Robby Grove, and give them the SN stamped on the front of the middle of the gear. They can tell you gross, what it is for, and what it is made of. 888-432-7534.

The attach bracket shown for the MK4 and early kitfoxes complete is like $400 - it attaches to the original gear tabs. Grove sells this gear for about $1600, and Kitfox wants like $4000 for gear with wheels and brakes, but they throw in 2 tires with it. I am asking $1100 for my complete 1200 gvw set minus tires.

The nose gear looks like Kitfox, and think it only started with model 5, or 4? The main is not KF5, as they were 1 inch thick and 1550 gross.

Hope this helps.

ED in MO P.S. The $4K Kitfox price is only the main gear - The nose gear is another $1500.

Edited 26 Feb 2013 by Ed In Missouri

[dholly 718]

Glad to help. Here's something to think about...

I will probably modify the attach bushings on my Avid+ firewall to accept a Kitfox 912 engine mount and series 5/6 smooth cowl for Rotax. I've considered using their nose gear engine mount version and a Kitfox nose gear to turn the Avid+ into a convertible like the Kitfox 6, 7 and SS. The big hangup is main gear. Unfortunately, I don't believe I can use my Airdale W.I.B main gear without modification like you could on earlier Avids, ie. just flip and swap sides, move back a bracket and add bungee hooks to the rear seat truss. My fuse is different down there, maybe I can get some pics of Chris B's Avid+ tri-gear to see exactly how Airdale did it.

If I need new main gear to pull this idea off, seems the most flexible option would be spring gear with clamp blocks that could be moved between the front and rear fuse brackets as necessary. I plan a 1320lb MTOW for my Avid+ so it would require a stronger Grove spring gear than what is sold for an Avid Mk-IV or KF-4. I would think the spring gear for the 1400lb. gross KF-5 would be best suited, but the gear for 1550lb. gross KF-6/7/SS might be too stiff.

I may be wrong but it looks like maybe someone modified your clamps to fit the Avid brackets? If true, that and the nose gear makes me to wonder if the main gear isn't actually for a Kitfox rather than Avid? Like Ed suggested, I would call Grove with the stamping # on the trailing edge to help identify it. If it were to turn out that your main gear is for the 1400lb MTOW KF-5 and Grove makes clamping blocks that would work with that spring gear and my Avid fuse, I might be interested in everything. Would not be too keen on using someone's makeshift clamp brackets personally, however, and I don't have the equipment to fabricate my own.

Take care.

[EDMO 1078]

Glad to help. Here's something to think about...

I will probably modify the attach bushings on my Avid+ firewall to accept a Kitfox 912 engine mount and series 5/6 smooth cowl for Rotax. I've considered using their nose gear engine mount version and a Kitfox nose gear to turn the Avid+ into a convertible like the Kitfox 6, 7 and SS. The big hangup is main gear. Unfortunately, I don't believe I can use my Airdale W.I.B main gear without modification like you could on earlier Avids, ie. just flip and swap sides, move back a bracket and add bungee hooks to the rear seat truss. My fuse is different down there, maybe I can get some pics of Chris B's Avid+ tri-gear to see exactly how Airdale did it.

If I need new main gear to pull this idea off, seems the most flexible option would be spring gear with clamp blocks that could be moved between the front and rear fuse brackets as necessary. I plan a 1320lb MTOW for my Avid+ so it would require a stronger Grove spring gear than what is sold for an Avid Mk-IV or KF-4. I would think the spring gear for the 1400lb. gross KF-5 would be best suited, but the gear for 1550lb. gross KF-6/7/SS might be too stiff.

I may be wrong but it looks like maybe someone modified your clamps to fit the Avid brackets? If true, that and the nose gear makes me to wonder if the main gear isn't actually for a Kitfox rather than Avid? Like Ed suggested, I would call Grove with the stamping # on the trailing edge to help identify it. If it were to turn out that your main gear is for the 1400lb MTOW KF-5 and Grove makes clamping blocks that would work with that spring gear and my Avid fuse, I might be interested in everything. Would not be too keen on using someone's makeshift clamp brackets personally, however, and I don't have the equipment to fabricate my own.

Take care.

Doug, The only "bug" I see in your convertible plans is the height of the main gear. If you use the main gear for the nose-gear setup, then your prop is going to be about 6 inches lower than standard when you go to TD.

I went the other way, and am using the TD gear and made my nose gear higher to match for more prop clearence.

Will have to put a step on the gear leg so my short legs can get my fat butt up to the seat, which, in my plane, has been raised up another 6 inches higher than the original, or carry a ladder to stand on, which I need anyway to get to my gas tanks!

Kitfox failed to mention that their plane was actually a nose-dragger and converted to a low-slung tail-dragger.

They sort of advertised it the opposite way, which wasnt true.

And, I have no clue as to how they moved the main gear.

ED in MO

Edited 26 Feb 2013 by Ed In Missouri

[jackak 20]

Doug, The only "bug" I see in your convertible plans is the height of the main gear. If you use the main gear for the nose-gear setup, then your prop is going to be about 6 inches lower than standard when you go to TD.

I went the other way, and am using the TD gear and made my nose gear higher to match for more prop clearence.

Will have to put a step on the gear leg so my short legs can get my fat butt up to the seat, which, in my plane, has been raised up another 6 inches higher than the original, or carry a ladder to stand on, which I need anyway to get to my gas tanks!

Kitfox failed to mention that their plane was actually a nose-dragger and converted to a low-slung tail-dragger.

They sort of advertised it the opposite way, which wasnt true.

And, I have no clue as to how they moved the main gear.

ED in MO

Doug,

When I was working on the gear configuration on my Avid Plus, I talked to Steve Winder about using the long wide gear on a tri-gear Avid and he recommended against it. While the gear will line up in the rear position, the placement of the axel on the wide gear is further towards the rear of the plane and would make it harder to rotate on take-off, and could cause the nose gear to slap down when landing.

If you look at the pictures I've posted in "Jack's Avid PLus" album on the Yahoo site you can see the difference on the location of the tire in relation to the gear structure.

To configure my Avid Plus as a tri-gear Steve recommended using the Mark IV tri-gear. Even using the standard tri-gear, he was a bit concerned about the strength of the stock nose gear if used off-runway. They've been known to buckle with a Rotax up front and with my Subaru, he suggested that the stock nose-gear would be marginal. In the picture I posted you can also see the bungie cord attach ears with the bungie on them. I wasn't as concerned about the strength of my nose gear because the gear was fabricated for me in the Ukraine with heavy wall stainless steel for the upper, with chrome-molly for the "U" shaped portion. The size of the "U" allowed me to use a 15x6.00x6 tire on the nose-gear. The tire is shown mounted on the plane with the faired nose-gear. Even with the stronger gear and larger tire, Steve recommended caution because the heavier weight of the Subaru would cause an increase in speed at landing, and he didn't know what the outcome would be.

I hope some of this information is useful, it's been some time since I had the discussion with Steve.

All the best,

Jack

[EDMO 1078]

Doug,

When I was working on the gear configuration on my Avid Plus, I talked to Steve Winder about using the long wide gear on a tri-gear Avid and he recommended against it. While the gear will line up in the rear position, the placement of the axel on the wide gear is further towards the rear of the plane and would make it harder to rotate on take-off, and could cause the nose gear to slap down when landing.

If you look at the pictures I've posted in "Jack's Avid PLus" album on the Yahoo site you can see the difference on the location of the tire in relation to the gear structure.

To configure my Avid Plus as a tri-gear Steve recommended using the Mark IV tri-gear. Even using the standard tri-gear, he was a bit concerned about the strength of the stock nose gear if used off-runway. They've been known to buckle with a Rotax up front and with my Subaru, he suggested that the stock nose-gear would be marginal. In the picture I posted you can also see the bungie cord attach ears with the bungie on them. I wasn't as concerned about the strength of my nose gear because the gear was fabricated for me in the Ukraine with heavy wall stainless steel for the upper, with chrome-molly for the "U" shaped portion. The size of the "U" allowed me to use a 15x6.00x6 tire on the nose-gear. The tire is shown mounted on the plane with the faired nose-gear. Even with the stronger gear and larger tire, Steve recommended caution because the heavier weight of the Subaru would cause an increase in speed at landing, and he didn't know what the outcome would be.

I hope some of this information is useful, it's been some time since I had the discussion with Steve.

All the best,

Jack

Jack, Is there any way you could post photos of your nose gear here? I dont get on Yahoo. How much time did you put on that gear, and what kind of terrain?

I am making a similiar setup with the Subaru. Still debating whether my original design with the 600 x 6 tire, or the spring-loaded with the 500 x 5 would be best. My original only had belleville washers for spring, and a fork like the Tri-pacer, except set at a 30 degree rake.

Doug, The "engineering general rule" for nose draggers is to draw a line vertical from the main axle in the most tail-down position, and your most aft CG should be not less than 3 degrees forward of that line - If that helps.

Also, the weight on the nose wheel in level position should not be less than 8% of total weight, and not more than 12%, as a general rule. I think this could be stretched and 5% to 15% might be workable weight.

Thanks,

Ed in MO

Edited 26 Feb 2013 by Ed In Missouri

[dholly 718]

Sorry Jim for the thread hijack!

Thanks all for the info, I've started a new Topic in the Avid+ forum for my question. CLICK HERE

[1avidflyer 1983]

No problem Doug, I did call Grove today, and learned this. Gear is called Avid Tri Custom. Explanation is this, Tri= Tri gear, Custom= gear was built 66" wide rather than 62" standard for this application. Here is the killer for you, gross weight is for 950 lbs. I asked them for today's price, and it is $1195 for the gear, add $200 for gun drilling for hydrolic brakes, I think I remember the axels were $75 each on their website, and I think my gear mounts might be homemade. Not sure what a fair price would be for this stuff, it's all in excellent condition. Take care, Jim Chuk

[EDMO 1078]

No problem Doug, I did call Grove today, and learned this. Gear is called Avid Tri Custom. Explanation is this, Tri= Tri gear, Custom= gear was built 66" wide rather than 62" standard for this application. Here is the killer for you, gross weight is for 950 lbs. I asked them for today's price, and it is $1195 for the gear, add $200 for gun drilling for hydrolic brakes, I think I remember the axels were $75 each on their website, and I think my gear mounts might be homemade. Not sure what a fair price would be for this stuff, it's all in excellent condition. Take care, Jim Chuk

Glad to hear that I ALMOST got something right this time! Sorry to hear that it is for lighter GW than Doug needed. If it is already drilled for axles, then I can help identify the kind if you need it.

ED in MO

Edited 26 Feb 2013 by Ed In Missouri

[dholly 718]

Jim, that sounds like that spring gear may be best suited for an Avid Model C. It came on a Mk-IV, right?. I'll give the builder credit though, fabbing up the nose gear and main spring mounts. You never had an interest in trying to fly the plane as a tri-gear?

[1avidflyer 1983]

No, I'll stick with the tailwheel, I fly from my grass strip in the summer, and put the plane on straight skis in the winter, so I'll probably pass on the change to tri-gear. I also would have to get a different endorsement for my sport pilot license to fly the tri-gear. Take care, Jim Chuk

[Aaronavid 0]

Hi Jim

Sorry to resurrect an old post but wondering if you have sold your nose gear or are interested in selling it?  I'm trying to adapt one to one of my other projects:)

Cheers

Allan

[1avidflyer 1983]

Hi Allan, I did sell the Grove gear, but still have the nose wheel stuff.  Let me know if you are interested..... Jim Chuk